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EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

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Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#11

Post by jeofken »

ve55 wrote: post #2

The way I usually phrase this situation is something like "The goals of a strong government are in direct opposition to the goals of most modern cryptocurrencies", and this is yet another subset of those goals where we can see the forces fighting against each other. I find it hard to convince myself cryptocurrency can win out in the long-term, as the more rules they find ways to skirt around via technology and decent…

With cryptocurrency you can travel across a border with a million $ worth, by just keeping a 12-word recovery phrase on you.

Cryptocurrencies can never be stopped, and will more likely outlive governments than vice versa. Long live tax evasion! Vive la liberté!

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#12

Post by vmception »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #8
TheChaplain wrote: post #3

I believe privacy advocates needs to be more involved in the financial sector for there to be any meaningful change and provide counter proposals to balance. The problem now is that a lot of cryptocurrencies are prime targets for money laundering, financing organized crime and terrorism networks. I often get shat on when mentioning that, especially by loud proponents of cryptocurrencies, but it is a real issue that m…

Throughout all of human history people used private forms of money like cash. Why is it that suddenly only now it is a disaster to have financial privacy because of "crime"?

they have to clamp down on financial privacy because they invented financial crimes

the federal crime of "money laundering" requires the state to use public resources in whitelisting every transaction, and having the entire population stigmatize the concept of ever having money themselves let alone actually moving it

and that 50 year old absurdity is pretty much what they are doubling down on

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#13

Post by vmception »

dogwater wrote: post #6
TheChaplain wrote: post #3

I believe privacy advocates needs to be more involved in the financial sector for there to be any meaningful change and provide counter proposals to balance. The problem now is that a lot of cryptocurrencies are prime targets for money laundering, financing organized crime and terrorism networks. I often get shat on when mentioning that, especially by loud proponents of cryptocurrencies, but it is a real issue that m…

What exactly is this scary crime that is supposively happening with money? They didn't need much money to do 9/11 besides some airline tickets and box cutters, I'm sure it wouldn't trip any bank report flag that would have allowed them to stop it from happening. Organized crime, is that even a thing? If no one is even going after obvious ico scams that have defrauded investors out of hundreds of millions of dollars a…

To put it more succinctly, no part of the Patriot Act would have flagged the 9/11 terrorists.

The Bank Secrecy Act and every expansion of it (like the Patriot Act) is just some data broker's pet project to fill some lucrative government contract.

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#14

Post by alkonaut »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #8
TheChaplain wrote: post #3

I believe privacy advocates needs to be more involved in the financial sector for there to be any meaningful change and provide counter proposals to balance. The problem now is that a lot of cryptocurrencies are prime targets for money laundering, financing organized crime and terrorism networks. I often get shat on when mentioning that, especially by loud proponents of cryptocurrencies, but it is a real issue that m…

Throughout all of human history people used private forms of money like cash. Why is it that suddenly only now it is a disaster to have financial privacy because of "crime"?

Because it's cumbersome enough to use cash. My main problem with cryptocurrencies isn't that it's used by organized crime, but that it risks eroding public trust in the tax system. In high tax/high trust systems, that can be disastrous.

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#15

Post by brmgb »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #8
TheChaplain wrote: post #3

I believe privacy advocates needs to be more involved in the financial sector for there to be any meaningful change and provide counter proposals to balance. The problem now is that a lot of cryptocurrencies are prime targets for money laundering, financing organized crime and terrorism networks. I often get shat on when mentioning that, especially by loud proponents of cryptocurrencies, but it is a real issue that m…

Throughout all of human history people used private forms of money like cash. Why is it that suddenly only now it is a disaster to have financial privacy because of "crime"?

Hard limits to cash transactions exist in most countries around the world. For example, in France, as a business, you can't accept payment in cash above 1000€. Between consumers, you need to produce an invoice.

I personally deeply disagree with the EFF regarding FinCEN. From my point of view, the obligation imposed by the regulation strikes a good balance between protecting private life and fighting tax dodging and money laundering. Records only start at $3000 and reporting at $10000. This puts most transactions between individuals in the no reporting zone.

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#16

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #10
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem now is that a lot of cryptocurrencies are prime targets for money laundering The issue is that you can't actually solve this. It's already over. The premise of money laundering rules is that you have two conspiring parties transferring illicit gains between one another and the regulations have the bank as an intermediary informing on them to the government. The existence of cryptocurrency makes it possi…

Bitcoin is traceable, so it is quite solvable until more people use Monero

Bitcoin has a public transaction record but the parties are nameless. All you see is times and amounts. And cryptocurrency mixers make those not very easy to trace.

Also, "solving" it by doing anything that would only cause criminals to switch to something else that already exists doesn't really solve anything, does it?

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#17

Post by Nextgrid »

alkonaut wrote: post #14
ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout all of human history people used private forms of money like cash. Why is it that suddenly only now it is a disaster to have financial privacy because of "crime"?

Because it's cumbersome enough to use cash. My main problem with cryptocurrencies isn't that it's used by organized crime, but that it risks eroding public trust in the tax system. In high tax/high trust systems, that can be disastrous.

Is it a bad thing? Maybe taxes shouldn't be a thing, or should be low enough that it's easier to pay them than to dodge them?

One of my problems with taxes is that it's essentially a free, automatically-replenishing pool of money for stupid politicians/government officials to spend recklessly (often prioritizing short-term wins that give them the most political clout) without the "pressure" a typical business in a competitive environment faces to use their money in the most efficient manner possible.

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#18

Post by ajkdhcb2 »

brmgb wrote: post #15
ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout all of human history people used private forms of money like cash. Why is it that suddenly only now it is a disaster to have financial privacy because of "crime"?

Hard limits to cash transactions exist in most countries around the world. For example, in France, as a business, you can't accept payment in cash above 1000€. Between consumers, you need to produce an invoice. I personally deeply disagree with the EFF regarding FinCEN. From my point of view, the obligation imposed by the regulation strikes a good balance between protecting private life and fighting tax dodging and m…

The extreme limits and AML regulations are quite a recent phenomenon.

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#19

Post by bouncycastle »

jeofken wrote: post #11
ve55 wrote: post #2

The way I usually phrase this situation is something like "The goals of a strong government are in direct opposition to the goals of most modern cryptocurrencies", and this is yet another subset of those goals where we can see the forces fighting against each other. I find it hard to convince myself cryptocurrency can win out in the long-term, as the more rules they find ways to skirt around via technology and decent…

With cryptocurrency you can travel across a border with a million $ worth, by just keeping a 12-word recovery phrase on you. Cryptocurrencies can never be stopped, and will more likely outlive governments than vice versa. Long live tax evasion! Vive la liberté!

I don't think you should be travelling with the 24 word recovery phrase.

That one should be encrypted, backed up, and stored in a safe place

Re: EFF to FinCEN: Stop Pushing for More Financial Surveillance

#20

Post by jeofken »

bouncycastle wrote: post #19
jeofken wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With cryptocurrency you can travel across a border with a million $ worth, by just keeping a 12-word recovery phrase on you. Cryptocurrencies can never be stopped, and will more likely outlive governments than vice versa. Long live tax evasion! Vive la liberté!

I don't think you should be travelling with the 24 word recovery phrase. That one should be encrypted, backed up, and stored in a safe place

Symmetrically encrypt it and tell the border guard it’s your moms laptop password
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