A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#821

Post by subsubzero » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

delaynomore wrote: post #814

subsubzero wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Agree, things that a union can address: - Pay transparency, Have detailed info about pay bands, and ensure some new hire from a hot company doing the same job as you is not making 2-3x your salary. - Broken promotion process, at my company promotion is completely…

I worked in a unionized IT shop for 6 years (now in SV) and here's my take: Pay transparency: union mandated pay band helps - no 2x/3x pay for the same position that's for sure. Though I do think this problem could be solved without a union. It's really about opening up compensation information. Broken promotion process/age discrimination/interviews: First of all, broken processes are not going to get better with a u…

Thanks for this interesting bit of info. To be fair I think none of these issues has to have a union to solve it, its just the majority of tech companies are really not fixing these major issues and most likely will never fix them.

> but you also have a lot of low performing lifers counting their days to retirement

I see this as a huge issue with unions. But I feel you have the same folks in large tech companies, they fall into a large team, the company is profitable so its not looking for layoffs, the person/s fall under the radar and they contribute as little as possible.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#822

Post by nitrogen » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

svieira wrote: post #460

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can be done and what will be done are two entirely different concepts, though. What makes you confident that this time it will be different or that this union would be immune from the same issues that occur in other unions? If we’ve reached the point where the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions, that’s not encouraging.

Precisely - I'm not anti-union, but I've seen the worst of unions (where they become boss #2 instead of being the collective voice of the worker). Anyone planning on starting a union should look at cases where unions _failed_ and avoid creating a union structure that resembles the failures.

I like this framing. This sounds a lot like how entrepreneurs should also look at failed companies rather than only successes.

One thing that every disliked union seems to have is the goal of permanence for the union itself. Maybe instead of having elected or long-term leaders in a permanent union, some should try a sortition process in a conference-like structure that reconvenes when enough employees vote to convene, then disbands until called upon again.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#823

Post by joshuamorton » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #678

readams wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is already being ruined by this tiny minority of sanctimonious blowhards. This is just a move to give more power to themselves to push their own political agenda in Google. Personally I want nothing to do with them, and I'd prefer that they just leave the company if they're unhappy. There's still lots of companies that want to hire software engineers, though of course they may find that nobody else puts up wit…

These are the people behind the Google Graveyard, the company's awful track record on UX and product design, and its core business strategy of making you, the user, the product through data monetization?

That's a bit of a reach.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#824

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

subsubzero wrote: post #667

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Agree, things that a union can address: - Pay transparency, Have detailed info about pay bands, and ensure some new hire from a hot company doing the same job as you is not making 2-3x your salary. - Broken promotion process, at my company promotion is completely…

> "...ensure some new hire from a hot company doing the same job as you is not making 2-3x your salary"

Given the number of young people in software and entering software, seniority based pay and losing the ability to job hop for increased salary is pretty much the last thing on earth they would want. It would also kill the company's ability to hire top talent by being able to offer more money.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#825

Post by bumby » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

esoterica wrote: post #682

thesuitonym wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

> You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. Not only is "accept it or leave it" very much a form of "having a say" in your work parameters, it's a much more powerful way of exerting your preferences than voting. If 100,000 people are voting on a contract your 1/100,000th share of the influence functionally rounds to zero. The co…

>The contract will reflect your coworkers aggregate preferences, which will in general be completely orthogonal to your own preferences.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts here or cite evidence to support it? On first thought, it doesn’t ring true to me. E.g., most of the union contract conditions seem to benefit most individuals with the exception of some edge cases

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#826

Post by golemiprague » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

Union is just another body to govern you, as if the company you work for is not enough. Just from the article I can see they support all kind of political agendas which me or others might not agree with. So no thanks, will rather deal directly with the company only, anyways at the end of the day the market forces dictate the conditions of a worker.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#827

Post by joshuamorton » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #622

capableweb wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might misunderstand the goal of a union. It's inherently political, that's the whole point of it. And the values from the mission statement does sound like something every company should aim for, but sometimes they forget we're all humans here, so we need something to keep companies in check. I'm not sure comparing unions to code of conducts are suitable. Unions are a historically old and proven way for w…

> And the values from the mission statement does sound like something every company should aim for For the record here is the second listed value > Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes. We will prioritize the needs of the worst off. Neutrality never helps the victim. Let me speak plainly. This type of phrasing is extremely common for progressives. A Trump voter would read this as polit…

It's also just like how unions work.

Unions are a progressive concept.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#828

Post by bradleyjg » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

minimuffins wrote: post #804

throwaway894345 wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know whether something like that would work in the software industry, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could benefit everyone who is currently employed in tech (at the expense of future potential tech employees). I doubt it, if only because actors are hired in large part due to their celebrity. There are no celebrity SREs (at best they have some cache in the software/SRE community, but not in t…

Most people in film and TV unions aren't actors.

The other unions are even harder to get into. At least occasionally a casting director will insist on a non-SAG actor. Many of the other unions are effectively impossible to get into except via their apprenticeship programs. Similar to the physician cartel ...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#829

Post by bjourne » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #481

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Unfortunately, through my own experience being in one & observing other unions, they often end up serving the organization of the union itself. They may still work for the workers, but also end up making decisions that are better for the union than for the workers. Right now, my kids are learning remotely. Howe…

Labor laws and collective bargaining are two very complicated topics. Perhaps the union gave the teacher you talked to a perfectly rational explanation but it came out as "vague justification" to them because they didn't understand it? I think that is more plausible than the union demanding teachers to work-from-home for no good reason.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#830

Post by microtherion » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #752

pulse7 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the moral right of every (software) author that his name is mentioned next to the authored intellectual property (software)? This is even written in copyright laws of some countries...

Unless as part of your employment, you agreed to an implicit copyright reassignment to the organization. In that instance, a “(c) Alphabet ####” is allowed.

In countries that know true "Moral Rights", those rights are unassignable, so any such agreement is void. Your employer still gets all the money, but you get the "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" clout if you want it.