A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#611

Post by kortilla » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #416

karl11 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs.

That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#612

Post by delfinom » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

gandutraveler wrote: post #287

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Unions will only help the rest & vest culture. I worked at Google and trust me there is so much fat that can be trimmed there. Especially the ones who have been there for 7+ years.. With unions it will get harder to fire them and at the same time they will need to be compensated equally. Software is not a profession where output is proportional to work hours like blue collar jobs. This will demoralize engineers to wo…

On the other hand, it may potentially "kickstart innovation". The driven engineers will be more likely to flee to smaller companies where they can work their magic.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#613

Post by pnw_hazor » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Apparently this is a Members-only union. They are different than classic teamster/boilermaker/machinist unions most people think of.

Unless the law or NLRB has recently changed its position, employers do not have to bargain with members-only unions. Though they can if they want.

https://prospect.org/justice/labor-crossroads-defense-member...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members-only_unionism

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#614

Post by gipp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

SoSoRoCoCo wrote: post #598

I'm excited about this, but also dismayed at the huge amount of pushback from the tech community. Exploitation in tech is built into the culture: people worship the guy who never spends time with his family and works 100 hrs per week. Screaming managers are tolerated, even revered. Retaliation is commonplace and keeps people in line, and is justified as "s/he was just lazy" or "not a team player". This needs to end.…

Neither of those things apply to Google.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#615

Post by delfinom » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #394

gandutraveler wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions will only help the rest & vest culture. I worked at Google and trust me there is so much fat that can be trimmed there. Especially the ones who have been there for 7+ years.. With unions it will get harder to fire them and at the same time they will need to be compensated equally. Software is not a profession where output is proportional to work hours like blue collar jobs. This will demoralize engineers to wo…

> This will demoralize engineers to work smarter & harder. This is, of course, why Germany is famously an engineering wasteland with no notable impact on the global economy. In reality, it all comes down to contracts: union employees can have performance incentives just like everyone else. The primary difference is that they’re above board and consistent because they come from a legal agreement rather than private ne…

Germany's concept of unions are far better than the American model that just ends up controlled by mafia families (they still are in NY) or union administration that pad their salaries because the way unions are structured and protected by the NRLB basically encourages hostile centralization.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#616

Post by pacificat0r » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

3np wrote: post #115

pacificat0r wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So these are really good examples, but I still don't understand what unions can do for 1% of someone's pay. They kind of look like subscription services, or worse places you have to join or else there are unintended consequences from other examples where they mention looking at union membership as an indicator of some experience (so kind of like a tax). The screen actors guild and all the movie-related guilds seem in…

One thing I can see a SE guild improving is clarity and consistency with things like license compliance, unenforceable attempts to restrict of ownership and development of software created in ones free time, assistance in stock options negotiations, and other things that regularly come up here.

Ownership of free-time developed stuff is likely the only thing that has peaked my interest. maybe unions aren't that bad after all. Tho one would hope this type of thing would just be covered by the law without requiring an union to handle, but heh, world is imperfect.

I remember when working in games you couldn't even write blogposts about any type of unrelated to programming thing (e.g. not even about playing guitar) and that was super frustrating. Likely those clauses weren't enforceble but still anoying.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#617

Post by jskell725 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

SoSoRoCoCo wrote: post #598

I'm excited about this, but also dismayed at the huge amount of pushback from the tech community. Exploitation in tech is built into the culture: people worship the guy who never spends time with his family and works 100 hrs per week. Screaming managers are tolerated, even revered. Retaliation is commonplace and keeps people in line, and is justified as "s/he was just lazy" or "not a team player". This needs to end.…

Perspective from one pushing-back tech worker:

-Never seen a manager scream. Note that anyone who does so is bad at their job; and won't last long unless if anyone else wants it.

-Workers commonly take multi-month parental leave breaks; block off afternoons for a kid's event, etc.

-I don't know anyone who works 100 hours a week; and if I did I would think them a fool. And also help them; as this is unsafe and they need some more sleep!

I understand that other gigs, especially perhaps in Gaming, are different! And workers of course have the right to freely associate, and so collectively bargain, if they choose to.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#618

Post by pnw_hazor » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

They formed a Members-only union which can exist absent a majority of employees joining. The terminology is confusing since all unions are member-only.

These minority unions do not have collective bargaining rights unless the employer agrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members-only_unionism

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#619

Post by mattmcknight » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

panarky wrote: post #471

scsilver wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I full on support their goal to clean up their yard before moving somewhere else. Employees are stakeholders and can use their leverage as they please. You somehow cast a negative moral light on workers for using this leverage when every other stakeholder, managment, stockholders, board members, government agencies, voters all use their leverage to change the ecosystem. Entitlement? You are entitled to what you can g…

This shows how deeply ingrained right-wing ideology has become in America. Outside America it is obvious that billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs wield power in their own self-interest, and that workers benefit from collective action in their own self-interest. But inside America the billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs are mythologized as benevolent actors, and workers should be thankful for the gifts graciously bestowed u…

A union is not a competitive market force. It is a means to force an employer to use a monopoly supplier of labor. It's anti-competitive.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#620

Post by abduhl » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #551

JediWing wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a power trip by union leadership/ "the organization of the union itself" though? It's a real concern about the safety and working conditions, and how a lack of a unified front can lead to fissures when negotiating that could actually hurt a majority of union members. The unions members probably mostly prefer work from home due to safety concerns. Should the school district wish to demand all teachers repor…

The schools are sanitized nightly and those who go in literally don't have to see anyone else, and by policy are not supposed to. "Unified front" That is not the purpose of the union. The union exists to serve it's members. If serving it's members might be slightly more difficult if it actually accommodates the choices of the members it serves, well that's it's job. It's job is not to make it's job easier, it's to se…

no man you don't get it, the union exists to protect the workers and therefore anything a worker does contrary to the union's position is against the worker's own interest by definition

just keep paying your dues, shut the fuck up, and we'll take care of the rest