A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#391

Post by mancerayder » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

Two thoughts as I wake up to this:

1) "Arranged as a members-only union, the new organization won’t seek collective bargaining rights to negotiate a new contract with the company"

What use will that be, if they don't collectively bargain, as a, em, collective of employees? The next step would be to pressure everyone to join, or the whole thing won't be very effective.

2) If the thing were to work, then I'd expect the very next HN article to read:

Alphabet Company Announces Move to __, TX.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#392

Post by vitus » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

The prevailing fixation seems to be on how unionization would help the highly-compensated engineers, when the people who need and would benefit most from unionization are the TVCs, who aren't considered Alphabet employees, don't get benefits, are regularly excluded (from all-hands, mailing lists, even affiliating with Google on LinkedIn).

Suppose a barista's phone dies. Employees are not permitted by policy to chip in to buy a new one, per existing guidance, even if there are 100 people at the office all willing to chip in $10 as gratitude for years of expertly-poured coffees.

Don't get me wrong -- there's absolutely value in using a staffing agency to scale hiring of support staff to fit the needs of rapidly growing sites. But if you've been employing the same worker for 1, 2, even 5 years, why not convert them to employees?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#393

Post by refurb » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

vegardx wrote: post #169

sethammons wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it really a bluff? How do you know if growth projects or other company investments had to be canceled?

We know because we got the merit increase. Do you think they'd give up so easily if they had a good case against it?

Well US auto manufacturers went bankrupt because the choice was: 1) agree to maintain unaffordable union benefits or 2) end up in a worse situation with a prolonged strike that hurts the business even more.

So they kicked the can down the road and chose 1 until they just went bankrupt and the courts allowed contracts to be renegotiated and high cost union employees to be replaced with younger employees at a far lower compensation package.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#394

Post by acdha » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

gandutraveler wrote: post #287

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Unions will only help the rest & vest culture. I worked at Google and trust me there is so much fat that can be trimmed there. Especially the ones who have been there for 7+ years.. With unions it will get harder to fire them and at the same time they will need to be compensated equally. Software is not a profession where output is proportional to work hours like blue collar jobs. This will demoralize engineers to wo…

> This will demoralize engineers to work smarter & harder.

This is, of course, why Germany is famously an engineering wasteland with no notable impact on the global economy.

In reality, it all comes down to contracts: union employees can have performance incentives just like everyone else. The primary difference is that they’re above board and consistent because they come from a legal agreement rather than private negotiations between individuals and companies.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#395

Post by ransom1538 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

unintended consequences

1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join.

2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will it be full time? A slack group? They dish out favors to win elections?

3. Who gets into the union? Base is on the newest woke culture? Base it on need? Salary? Scan their social media? Popularity contests? Seems like a great way to start discrimination.

4. Will being in this union freak out future employers? If your union spends most of it's time suing - will they want you around? EG. I don't see Tesla wanting a high ranking union person from google.

5. My wife worked at a union. Unions tend to not fire - so (non blue collar) you end up with hundreds of drained, demotivated, incompetent - due payers. This is the direction people at google want to go? Who will actually do the work? Non-union Sub-contractors?

6. Will they become political? Will you have to join this political party? What if you disagree on a few things? You still pay dues right - to the Fat Cat?

7. Will they corner off work? EG. You can't be a designer level III without being in the union.

One thing that wont happen: better working conditions.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#396

Post by flr03 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #179

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

There is plenty of evidence that I've seen firsthand in municipal government of unions protecting and promoting incompetent IT talent. It doesn't all fall to @#$& solely because government tech is often very slow to change, so mediocre workers can train on very specific applications and not need much continuing ed. I scarcely ever met one that would get hired at either a FAANG or a tech startup. I will qualify this b…

Where is the evidence?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#397

Post by _qulr » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #377

_qulr wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is complicated, because public schools (and police departments, mentioned by another replier) are not for-profit entities. I don't think we can treat public employee unions and private employee unions the same. Public schools, police departments, etc., are usually "political" entities, run by elected officials such as school boards and city councils. I would say there's no guarantee whatsoever in these cases tha…

>Part of the reason for public employee unions is to protect the members specifically from political interference. The alternative is not necessarily "merit" based compensation but rather political favoritism and retribution. And yet all forms of public sector employment, regardless of union status, are treated as staffing agencies who's hiring can be manipulated by those who traditionally hold the power of political…

> I'm much more inclined to believe that the purpose of unions is to extract maximum concessions from the employer(s) for the benefit of the people they control while ignoring any externalities.

I agree that this is one purpose of unions. I just disagree that it's the only purpose. Unions have multiple purposes, and it's a common misconception that there's only one specific type of benefit to them. This is why I intentionally phrased my comment with "Part of the reason for public employee unions is..."

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#398

Post by andyjohnson0 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

A little off topic: as a developer living in the UK and considering joining a union, which one(s) should I consider?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#399

Post by 14 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

mikecoles wrote: post #342

CydeWeys wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. This phrasing is disingenuous. If you don't like what's going on you can stay and fight rather than giving up and leaving. The people unionizing are of the "stay and fight" variety. Where does this false dichotomy come from that your only optio…

Absolutely not. People that want to unionize are the lazy or those whose dreams are sprinkled with unicorn glitter. Or a combination of the two. There are no benefits to modern unions. They are another level of bureaucracy. If you want better conditions or pay, earn it.

So mistaken. My union has done so much for me and my fellow workers. Any time I have a meeting with management my union sits at my side. If I was wrongfully fired my union would fight it and even hire a lawyer. Why would I not want those protections? How is that not needed in a modern world? And finally what do you do for work that hour industry needs no union I am very curious?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#400

Post by mordymoop » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #182

karl11 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019. There are regular complaints about benefits and pay multipliers being cut back. Why shouldn't workers seek to capture as much of their labor as possible? People don't seem to complain when businesses do that.

I wonder if the company will respond to this sort of incentive by hiring hundreds of thousands of new employees to absorb the “profit” rather than pay employees far in excess of market rate.