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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#541
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't think you can simply claim they are beneficial for everybody.

> Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead.

That's the law actually, IIRC. It also protects people with children.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the mission statement seems to be "personal agendas" to you? Here they are listed: - All Alphabet workers deserve a voice - Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes - Everyone deserves a welcoming environment - All aspects of our work should be transparent - Our decisions are made democratically - We prioritize society and the environment - We stand in solidarity with workers and a…

Pretty much every politician ever has used manipulative language to try to make themselves sound better than they are. It's why abortion activists call themselves pro-life/pro-choice. To take their words at face value is incredibly naive. For example, the line about "economic justice" almost certainly means the authors believe the company should be used as a propaganda vehicle for socialism/communism. And the line ab…

> For example, the line about "economic justice" almost certainly means the authors believe the company should be used as a propaganda vehicle for socialism/communism

These days it's for race+gender-orientated demands.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#543

Googler here, these articles are literally the first I've heard of it. No internal emails, rabblerousing, or any kind of comms about it, and it seems as though the union discussed doesn't actually exist yet. Seems a bit odd (and bad reporting), but we'll see where it goes. After watching how a mechanics union did absolutely nothing while CEOs ripped apart my Dad's pension and put him through hell, I have a bit of a d…

Here's their website: https://alphabetworkersunion.org/ It's hard to find in Google searches buried under all the news articles.

Does the Google Walkout count as rabblerousing? It's all been word-of-mouth until now, which is kinda slow since everyone left the office and went online.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#544
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply, union interest is not the same as company interest. Its maybe good for the employee but not good for the company. One example of negative things of an union: It makes harder for company to fire people. Look at teachers union right now, they are fighting by all means to refuse to come back teaching in person. Teaching online benefit the teacher but really sucks for the kids and parents.

That's both reductive and false. The employees benefit when the company does well. A union just fights to have the employees share more in that success.

> The employees benefit when the company does well

Not really, for example it would be benefit the company to reduce expense by improving automation/efficiency by reducing the number of employee.

I wouldn't say it benefited the employee to get sacked.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#545
post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> Unionizing at Google makes no sense, as there are thousands of tech companies hiring engineers in the valley -- engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better".

Wouldn’t Google workers collectively bargaining with Google using the threat of leaving to work at another tech company be, like, a union?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#546
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. Yeah, a bizarre line of reasoning. Footballers first unionized in 1907 and haven't looked back since. Today, your average footballer (plying their trade in the upper tiers of English football) makes more in a month than most tech engineers make in a year (g…

In America, baseball unionization was what drove higher salaries.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

> We are capable of creating a new type of union... Can you give examples of such new types of unions that have been established the last 1-2 decades, and how they differ from the "legacy" versions?

IWGB and UVW (International Workers of Great Britain and United Voices of the World) are examples in the UK. IWGB in particular has done great work representing some of the most precarious workers in the gig economy, a risk that bigger unions cannot or will not take. Partly this is due to the UK unions playing it safe with direct action such as strikes, since labour laws in the UK were made rather stringent since Thatcher and the NUM had it out in the 80s.

This is a great article about them. Maybe paywalled, sorry!

https://www.ft.com/content/576c68ea-3784-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3c...

If you Google "IWGB deliveroo" or "UVW St. Marys" you will find interesting case studies where each have represented delivery riders and nurses and won concessions where a bigger union wouldn't have bothered cos of the risk involved. Echoing the comment a few levels up, this can definitely be seen as a "disruption" of what a union is or is expected to do.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#548

I made this point on HN before but I think it applies here. The world breaks out into two types of employers: those who try to hire outstanding people and go above and beyond for them, with the expectation that one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company. The alternative is employees who treat their employees like cattle and the employees treat the em…

What a naive world view is this to think that a large enough company goes “above and beyond” for their employees... As a German these American work ethics are so weird to me. You are being put on a stick and held over a bon fire and all you do is scream “turn me quicker“! What life is this to work your ass off for a company that demands crazy work hours, that can fire you for any reason with laughable notice period,…

That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two entirely separate sorts of employer relationships to consider.

That you didn’t address the second type of relationship, specifically brought your nationality in, and ended by calling their nation a depressing dystopia brings this dangerously close into nationalist flamebait territory.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#549
Any system that aggregates power can be used towards detrimental efforts. Unions aggregate power and as such are heavily dependent on their leadership.

When there was no employment law in the US and you had children working, obviously change was necessary and so unions were able to provide worker protections that an individual couldn't establish for themselves since they had no power against the corporation.

If you look at police unions in the US you can see how detrimental unions can be as well. They are focused on protecting their workers even when those same workers are the issue which leads to a very challenging environment around firing "poor" performers.

Often times what is better is intelligent government regulation. Though that in and of itself is an oxymoron.

Things like mandated health insurance, overtime pay, work hours, minimum wage, these are all protections that we need encoded in law, less so in unions.

The other challenge with unions, is that while one can succeed it leaves everyone else that is outside of the union at other companies completely unprotected.

At the same time, if you think of the largest union, it is all of the workers of a country. What if they joined together, to really lobby the government for massive change. Something that goes into law.

Like minimum wage increases, and the like.

The reality though is that any economic system is complex where pushing on one area creates an often unexpected result elsewhere.

You would also need heavier investment in government agencies that are meant to police the enforcement of such policies and to ensure that they are truly operating separately from the industries they are supposed to be policing. The opposite of that is what happened with the FAA and Boeing recently.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the mission statement seems to be "personal agendas" to you? Here they are listed: - All Alphabet workers deserve a voice - Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes - Everyone deserves a welcoming environment - All aspects of our work should be transparent - Our decisions are made democratically - We prioritize society and the environment - We stand in solidarity with workers and a…

Pretty much every politician ever has used manipulative language to try to make themselves sound better than they are. It's why abortion activists call themselves pro-life/pro-choice. To take their words at face value is incredibly naive. For example, the line about "economic justice" almost certainly means the authors believe the company should be used as a propaganda vehicle for socialism/communism. And the line ab…

> To take their words at face value is incredibly naive

I agree, but that's what we have to go on, as this effort just started. The opposite is naive as well, where you assume everyone always have hidden agendas. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

> For example, the line about "economic justice" almost certainly means the authors believe the company should be used as a propaganda vehicle for socialism/communism.

Well, yes and no. Yes, you can describe their economic justice value as socialistic, I don't think they are trying to hide that. Here's the full value:

> Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes. We will prioritize the needs of the worst off. Neutrality never helps the victim.

Yes, sounds like socialism. Exactly what they are aiming to implement in the Google/Alphabet workplace. The people who sign up with the union, are people who agree they want to focus on fixing that particular problem. That's a strong point of unions in general, to align about common values.

Not sure how you get it to be a "Google should be used as a propaganda vehicle". The employees there want to improve their own workplace by implementing their ideas. Now they are calling for others (who agree) to join them. I don't have any skin in the game, so I'm fine either way. But I find the process of even trying this to be refreshing, no matter what their values and ultimately their impact will be.

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