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Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

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Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#121

Post by ValentineC »

f6v wrote: post #22
jesterson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but original commenter was referring to societal progress which I found interesting.

Never been to Singapore, but if there’s really low crime rate and people don’t litter on the streets - I’d call that progress.

Singaporean here. There's low violent crime, but I wouldn't suggest that people leave their wallets and phones around in a public area.

Some people still litter on the streets, and it's shameful if one gets caught by law enforcement [1]. Singapore hires lots of cleaners to clean it up. We're nowhere as gracious as the residents of Japan or Taiwan.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_work_order

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#122

Post by ValentineC »

baybal2 wrote: post #74
rusk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend that worked there for a few years. He was all set to come home for a holiday and management waltzed in and just told everybody holidays were suspended. He still got to come home as he was something of a special case but it was a good story for us ... Also the legend of the bank who called a fire drill then revoked everyone’s security when they were out of the building and told them they were laid off .…

Yes, fire at will is there, on the other hand you have quite potent wrongful termination lawsuits, and a number of hiring quotas which are often enforced. Singapore is probably the only country which would force a business to hire somebody with clinically severe mental development issues.

> Singapore is probably the only country which would force a business to hire somebody with clinically severe mental development issues.

On the other hand, mental conditions are heavily stigmatised in Singapore.

No government-linked company (and Singapore's sovereign wealth fund has its fingers in most large and up-and-coming companies here) would hire someone on a career track if they have a diagnosed mental condition of some sort, anxiety and depression included.

Public health insurance downplays the severity of most mental conditions, but the status quo seems to be slowly improving: https://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore/move-include-addictions-se...

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#123

Post by NicoJuicy »

throwaw999 wrote: post #97
NicoJuicy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe ( perhaps excluding Hungary). Even then, the bluetooth based protocol of Apple and Google can't be used for location tracing. The governments have 0 location data in possession when based on that protocol.

It's funny you say that given I live in an EU country (which is not Hungary) and I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

Like I said, if the app is based on the protocol so it's not even possible in that case.

Most countries followed this spec and combatting the virus has more priority in every country in the EU. Not at all handling out fines.

Although France is not implementing the standard protocol. They are very protective of citizens data ( not even a city can access it).

( Source: my work is related to this in Belgium and France)

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#124

Post by f6v »

kbar13 wrote: post #25
f6v wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to Singapore, but if there’s really low crime rate and people don’t litter on the streets - I’d call that progress.

i dont understand this focus on litter on the streets. yes clean streets is wonderful but i dont rank it anywhere near freedom of speech and social equality or something like standardized healthcare in importance. my hunch is that "clean streets" is mostly important to those who are not sensitive to social injustice...

Yeah well, people have different priorities.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#125

Post by f6v »

jesterson wrote: post #28
f6v wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to Singapore, but if there’s really low crime rate and people don’t litter on the streets - I’d call that progress.

If you'd stay here for a while, you'd understand why there is low crime rate and no litter on the street. What even probably surprise you more is why it's happening and what it has to do with progress. Short answer - nothing.

I can’t argue with you cause I don’t live there. But everywhere I live people complain and say government isn’t doing anything.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#126

Post by f6v »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #23
f6v wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation != causation. I expected HN readers to know that.

GP said it seems , and just because correlation doesn't imply causation doesn't mean everything that correlates literally cannot have a causal relationship.

The default mode when operating with data is to assume there’s no causation. Doing otherwise creates room for too many misconceptions and erroneous interpretations.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#127

Post by read_if_gay_ »

f6v wrote: post #126
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP said it seems , and just because correlation doesn't imply causation doesn't mean everything that correlates literally cannot have a causal relationship.

The default mode when operating with data is to assume there’s no causation. Doing otherwise creates room for too many misconceptions and erroneous interpretations.

Clearly you can make a hypothesis though.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#128

Post by yegle »

kypro wrote: post #70
gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

I personally refuse to use any contact tracing because an envitible consequence of its adoption is the idea that mass surveillance is legitimate so long as it can be argued it's keeping people safe. Tech like this is always abused by governments. Just look at how governments are attacking encrypted messaging services today. It would be naive to think same thing wouldn't happen for any popular privacy-first contact tr…

To me, anyone who work in tech and dismisses the Exposure Notification framework as "surveillance" is no different from an anti-vaxxer.

The app does 3 things on your phone: 1) continuously exchange Temporary Exposure Keys with other phones with EN enabled, and 2) periodically download a list of TEKs, compare to locally cached list of TEKs to determine if you were in close contact with a COVID positive patient, and 3) in the unlikely event when you are tested positive, work with your Health Authority, use a one-time code to upload your TEKs to the key server.

If you are really paranoid, you can do 1 and 2 with just a battery powered Raspberry Pi Zero (someone has done that and was previously posted to HN but can't find it right now) which should be net beneficial to you. But if you just don't understand this framework please stop spreading FUD.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#129

Post by ekianjo »

ValentineC wrote: post #121
f6v wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to Singapore, but if there’s really low crime rate and people don’t litter on the streets - I’d call that progress.

Singaporean here. There's low violent crime, but I wouldn't suggest that people leave their wallets and phones around in a public area. Some people still litter on the streets, and it's shameful if one gets caught by law enforcement [1]. Singapore hires lots of cleaners to clean it up. We're nowhere as gracious as the residents of Japan or Taiwan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_work_order

> We're nowhere as gracious as the residents of Japan or Taiwan.

I don't know enough about Taiwan to comment, but the 'cleanliness' of Japanese is exaggerated in many ways:

1) there's a very large population of smokers and I see them everyday throwing their cigarette butts on the streets.

2) yes, Japanese tend to be quite clean when people are looking (social pressure). However, go in places where nobody's there or nobody's watching, like mountains, and you will see massive amounts of litter dropped by hikers. Go on a beach that's not too frequented, and find out someone did a barbecue party the night before and left all their trash behind. Come back from a firework at night and watch your step as you walk on thousands of plastic bento boxes dropped on the floor after consumption.

So, let's tone down the myths a little.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#130

Post by slg »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #72
slg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Humans feel empathy. States (and corporations) only follow interests. This is such a bizarre statement to me. States and corporations are made of people. For the states and corporations to lack empathy it means the people controlling them are lacking empathy.

Its bizzare that you doubt it - you mist have been fortunate to never have been harmed by a faceless bureaucracy. There is an entire genre of kafkaesque literature, where the whole system is so broken that even top officials synpathetic to your plight cannot help you. There is 'computer says no' situation where a bank clerk wants to give you a mortgage, but cannot because the computer system flagged something, but wo…

The bureaucracy stops being faceless the moment you encounter a human. If the human is unwilling to help you, that is on that human. If that human is unable to help you, that is the human who put that obstacle in the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy isn't making any actions itself.

To be clear, I am not defending governments, corporations, or bureaucracies. I am pointing out those things are too often used as a shield so the individual can divorce themselves from the results of their actions.

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