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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#411

Post by f6v »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #379
worik wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1917 they were in ruins. in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won. The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. They made the best rockets, fighter planes, super computers.... But they never made a TV with a remote control.

in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won. Yes, by throwing ten million of their own citizens at the problem. They won because Hitler ran out of bullets before Stalin ran out of targets.

And what was the alternative? The German’s objective was to literally clear the land out for German settlers. By killing everyone inhabiting those lands. For soviets it was a matter of giving at least some chance of survival to women and children they were trying to protect. Imagine all those soldiers who knew they had to sacrifice their lives. And you try to reduce their bravery to being “Stalin’s targets”.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#412

Post by minxomat »

908B64B197 wrote: post #303
dmix wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

> Not the brilliant engineers you imagine are going to run it. I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! What the EU should do is earmark some of that money to be directly paid as engineering salaries. Of course they won't: that would reduce the piece of the pie of all the non-technical managers and bureaucrats!

> What the EU should do is earmark some of that money to be directly paid as engineering salaries.

I mean, that's exactly what they do. Any company with good finances can apply for support for R&D to develop new features or tech that they would otherwise not develop or invest in. This comes in the form of direct contributions to employees' salaries listed in the grant application.

I've written and defended these grants for multiple companies and I have been on the receiving end of them, too.

This isn't even specific to this deal, this is just something you can always do, along with literally hundreds of EU and state level support programs.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#413

Post by joelbluminator »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #393
Daho0n wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The position of the tax authority is that the sole reason you get equity, is because of your relationship as employee, and therefore the "gift of equity" is actually a form of salary But they are correct in saying this. You wouldn't give equity to random people would you? And is it not worth money? You might not agree with the tax rate but the two reasons you mentioned are irrefutably true.

I am not saying it is false. I am just saying that the tax rate makes giving equity very unattractive, which doesn't help employee motivation.

Do you really have a problem of obtaining good devs? Seems to me you can get good personnel in a bargain price in NL. It's also super easy to bring people from outside the EU. That's the main reason I think software devs are so cheap in the EU.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#414

Post by neltnerb »

usr1106 wrote: post #342
csunbird wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! Exactly. The salaries in EU are pitiful.

Tech salaries in the US are not sustainable. We don't have enough planets to run economies and waste natural resources at that velocity. Well, probably the same is true for the "pitiful" salaries in the EU. Just to a lesser degree.

Yet tech salaries in Vancouver combined with real estate values make it so that most tech jobs are barely living wage, at least when my partner and I tried hard to make it work some years ago. Even with universal health care (which wasn't quite what they have) it couldn't possibly make up the difference for someone with college debt.

I'd argue that if you got a CS degree from an American college you're probably just forced to work in the US simply because the other prospective employees can accept a lower salary due to a lower debt load. Maybe the best of the best can find a way to earn American salaries overseas but I really don't think that's as common as the HN crowd might assume.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#415

Post by f6v »

iguy wrote: post #399
samat wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a popular myth that 'there was a mighty USSR and some enemies ruined it'. The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy. That's just basic science. They exported oil and imported grain. Russia imported GRAIN for gods sake. Then oil prices collapsed. Next? They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. And then 'evil liberals/evil west destroying the great countr…

> Egor Gaidar [1] is an excellent source This is published in English as [1] Yegor Gaidar, "Collapse of an Empire: Lessons for Modern Russia". TLDR is maybe this [2] write-up of a talk, 8 pages, very interesting. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Empire-Lessons-Modern-Russia... [1] https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/20070419_Gaid...

Keep in mind that Gaidar is one of the most controversial figures in Russian history.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#416

Post by neltnerb »

usr1106 wrote: post #317
dmix wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

> Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. I can understand your concerns. But if you look at mid-range airplanes the European monster Airbus did respectably catch up with incumbent Boeing. In with the Jumbos they clearly surpassed it engineering-wise but failed in their commercial predi…

Plus side, the amount of money seems realistic. TSMC's latest node at 5nm/3nm was like $16B and so 10x doesn't sound outrageous if playing catchup.

I do wonder how many people will be involved; it could be like ITER where everyone builds one fab that's truly the best in the world. Or it could be that they want to spread it out amongst the existing incumbents they can find who I am sure will do nothing with it.

Concentrate the funding and I imagine it could do pretty well. Distribute to (more than one) commercial entity (preferably zero to retain public access) and I doubt it will go anywhere.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#417

Post by joelbluminator »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #393
Daho0n wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The position of the tax authority is that the sole reason you get equity, is because of your relationship as employee, and therefore the "gift of equity" is actually a form of salary But they are correct in saying this. You wouldn't give equity to random people would you? And is it not worth money? You might not agree with the tax rate but the two reasons you mentioned are irrefutably true.

I am not saying it is false. I am just saying that the tax rate makes giving equity very unattractive, which doesn't help employee motivation.

By the way I think I read somewhere they wanna fix the employee options problems, you're totally right it's broken.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#418

Post by Zardoz84 »

jorvi wrote: post #234
GregarianChild wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aerospace, energy, semiconductors, telecom, drugs/biotech The EU lost leadership in all of them! (And some others!)

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace.

Well, SpaceX caught with the pants down to everyone. Before the revolution of the reusable Falcon 9, the Ariane 5 was a fine reliable rocket.

Sadly, the Ariane 6 design predates the reusable revolution of SpaceX, how ever they are working on reusable Arianes that are similar to the Falcon 9 and Spaceship (https://www.techforspace.com/european-space-sector/european-...).

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#419

Post by caskstrength »

f6v wrote: post #409
d3ckard wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss a crucial fact here - large part of Soviet block was incorporated by force and wanted to get rid of their influence as fast as possible. Nobody misses USRR here in Poland.

Poland is a weird example since it doesn’t seem like they fit in the EU either, almost like an outcast. But let’s look at other ex-Soviet countries. Territorial quarrels and dumb nationalism were unthinkable back then. Look at Azerbaijani and Armenians, ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine, Georgia...

If only we ("other ex-Soviet countries") could stop our "dumb nationalism" and go back to being nice "little-brother nations", speaking Russian, fighting Western imperialism together somewhere in Afghanistan after being drafted to glorious Red army... Those where the times, comrade!

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#420

Post by rusk »

cnmlqk wrote: post #331
rusk wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are literally using a tangible benefit right now.

We would be using another subset of SGML otherwise. There's no way that something resembling the WWW wouldn't have been invented without CERN. And Einstein's patent office was cheaper.

Yeah well it wasn’t and in all the years since nothing better has been either. And the reasons for that are specifically the flaws in the commercial approach.
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