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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#381
I can't decide if this is comical or depressing. The EU realizes they need to own the ability to manufacture processors. Meanwhile here in the US we've got hedge fund managers trying to gut Intel, national security be damned:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/activist-hedge-fund-...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#382
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing chlorinated chicken to diesel is just insane.

You're right -- diesel is at least a million times more harmful

No. Diesel, compared to petrol, is worst for short-term air pollution and better for CO2 emissions. And, ultimately, climate change is the biggest danger.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government spending isn't the problem, it's who gets the money. In the US I see it all going to established players. Which is fine for stuff like finding a COVID-19 vaccine. But is a total disaster for promoting innovation. I have a computer engineering degree and have watched nothing of interest happen in semiconductor manufacturing for over 20 years. Yes we have blue LEDs now. Yes we have fast video cards. But if y…

> It would take a paltry amount of money, in the low millions of dollars, to design real (general purpose) multicore processors that deliver orders of magnitude better performance than what we have today. But unfortunately lawmakers are for the most part technologically illiterate, and technologists are unduly skeptical of any type of programming outside the mainstream. > > So my dream of a sub-$1000, 1000+ core CPU…

Ya I hear you, I started with C++ and dabbled in 68000 assembly back in the early 90s. The biggest problems back then was the main loop and that a program could only get to a million lines before it was too unstable and crashed. Even just the protected memory of Java, or protected memory in general, felt like a distant dream.

Now we have event-based apps but we're also stuck in the purgatory of async hell. Hundreds of classes got replaced with hundreds of factories and having to endlessly learn DSLs. Compilers mutated into handwritten unit tests. I feel a heaviness in my chest just writing this, because one thought leads to another and it's hard to articulate the root of the discontent. I still believe that the web way is better than bare metal, but I'm saddened to see it reinventing the bad habits that we abandoned 25 years ago.

For me, what's really going on is that computers have not gotten appreciably faster since about the time that PowerPC iMacs were running OS X, roughly the year 2000. Before that, computers were getting 100 times faster every decade, and then it just kinda.. stopped. Only video games kept going, the only tradeoff being that we have to use someone else's 3D library rather than just writing ray tracers in a few pages of code (if only we had general-purpose multicore chips).

And that made programmers desperate, because they were still focusing on performance instead of stepping back and seeing the high-level abstractions that were largely understood by the 1980s. Everyone is so used to being compute-bound that we can't even think about solutions outside of that reality.

My "idea" to fix all this, bluntly, is to forget about improving single-threaded performance and start giving people the raw computing power they need to get back to work again. To keep up with Moore's Law, that's a computer with 10,000 parallel threads running at least 1 GHz, for $1000. Or 100 times the cores every decade. My initial mention of 1000 cores was perhaps conservative.

Pretty much all of the problems we deal with today are embarrassingly parallel. A synchronous blocking PHP page is, when served to thousands of users. DSP is. Neural nets, genetic algorithms, stocks, Bitcoin..

So our desktop machines should really be thousands of Docker containers with a total capacity of like 1000000%. No program would ever block another program, or get out of its sandbox. Programs would sometimes run across the internet. I picture it kind of like this big Minecraft Disneyland where you're in VR but processing stuff in the background and forgetting it's there. Maybe you'd devote 50% to an AI agent like J.A.R.V.I.S. that sits around all day backing up its best self and evolving its subprocesses to be even better. Not being compute-bound is like being able to throw processing power at problems declaratively and never having to solve anything menial again. I've been daydreaming about all this since like 1999 hahaha.

The math is all there, I've written about it at length in previous comments. You basically take an old processor like MIPS that was about as optimized for single-threaded performance as one can get, without getting mired in the evolutionary dead end of long pipelines and huge caches. That or the PowerPC 601 or DEC Alpha had on the order of 1-3 million transistors. Looks like the Apple M1 has 16 billion. So the raw numbers do suggest 10,000 of last-century's best cores. Then spend another 10 billion transistors for about 1-10 GB of RAM, or 1 MB of ram in-core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count

Yes, memory routing is a pain, but you just use content-addressable memory and treat the interconnect just like any other network on the internet. The cores use caching, compression and copy-on-write to combine the best aspects of Erlang, Lisp, and Clojure. We'd write code in a Javascript-like language that's identical to the ideas from Immer and Immutable.js, but natively. Since everything is read-only, it statically compiles ahead to the best of its ability, running through a monad only when processing mutable state, and then going back to static. When you're not compute-bound, the static stuff processes instantly. It basically inverts the logic, so the only slow part of your code is the IO. My terminology isn't exact here, but it would basically transpile a subset of Javascript to Lisp and then run the embarrassingly parallel stuff 10,000 times faster than we're used to, rivaling the speed of video cards.

To do this as a hobby project, it might be fun to see how many early ARM cores and small RAMs could fit on a chip with a billion transistors. Then see how hard it is to add the content-addressable networking to the OS. Then finally get 1000 Docker containers running with, say, Debian. I used to daydream about doing it on an FPGA, but haven't kept up as closely as I'd like. Also I feel like there is industry pressure to keep FPGAs down, because they haven't kept up with Moore's law either, and never went fully open source like they should have.

I feel kind of weary about all this because I've been thinking about it for so long, and have a lot of regrets about not using my degree more. I'm still just writing CRUD apps like everyone else. It's so tedious, and takes so much code to do so little visible work, that I've lost seasons.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

The USA is also one country, one culture, one language, 300 million people as an initial market and a continent. Each of these lower the barrier to entry. The last point point about being a continent is that I can ship across the USA for far less than I can ship from one side of the EU to the other. The USA has economies of scale that Europe still does not have.

> The USA has economies of scale that Europe still does not have.

If anything Europe has larger economies of scale. EU population alone is 446 million and that's not including countries that chose not to be part of it.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#385
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were non-competitive businesses producing outdated junk and in majority of cases there was no other way to survive apart of being sold for scrap. Some manufacturers that produced basic sellable goods survived (steel foundries, fertilizer makers)

This is not true, several precision mechanics factories (or parts of factories) in Hungary were producing for Western export and yet they let them rot apart.

Same happened in Latvia where the largest soviet chip maker ALFA was dismatled under silly (but efficient) propaganda premises. It was top notch and had great contracts with US and Russia at the moment. Decades later the retired goverment officials confirmed they were "advised" and said "we did not understand what we were doing very much back then". Of course, they were ex-soviet middle level officials and anti soviet activists who suddenly found themselves in power and needed such advices.

The true reason for those who wonder was the fact that ALFA was making electronics for MiG, Su, Tu and for missiles. I had family and friends working there btw.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#387
post #380
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. Compared to the huge wage increase, the increase in living standard is very minor (and in some regards worse, e.g. the amount of time you lose daily to the car c…

>That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD ( http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/ ), where…

And that’s not even specific to tech salaries. A typical Bay Area TC of $250-400k for a senior engineer will also include great healthcare so there is basically no competition in any European location.

You have to specifically want to live in a European city for the culture/walkability/etc or else there is just no reason to take tech jobs there.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#388
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD ( http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/ ), where…

And that’s not even specific to tech salaries. A typical Bay Area TC of $250-400k for a senior engineer will also include great healthcare so there is basically no competition in any European location. You have to specifically want to live in a European city for the culture/walkability/etc or else there is just no reason to take tech jobs there.

You can get the walkability side in any of northeastern cities such as NYC, Boston, and to a lesser extent D.C. Pay is comparable to the Bay given the cost of living difference.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#389
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aerospace, energy, semiconductors, telecom, drugs/biotech The EU lost leadership in all of them! (And some others!)

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

What, apart from using, does CERN have to do with energy?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

The USA is also one country, one culture, one language, 300 million people as an initial market and a continent. Each of these lower the barrier to entry. The last point point about being a continent is that I can ship across the USA for far less than I can ship from one side of the EU to the other. The USA has economies of scale that Europe still does not have.

>The last point point about being a continent is that I can ship across the USA for far less than I can ship from one side of the EU to the other.

I sell on eBay and Amazon. We Americans have no idea how good we have it in terms of shipping options.

I can ship via USPS a videogame that is, including the padded envelope, 4 oz or less in weight for ~$3 to anywhere in the US (even AK, HI, and PR and other territories).

I can ship as much as fits into a USPS-provided free padded Priority Mail envelope for $7.75, and reasonably expect that it will arrive anywhere in the US in two to three days.

After FedEx ended its relationship with Amazon, it gave eBay Amazon's previous steep discount. In many cases, FedEx 2Day through eBay is by far the cheapest way to get a package from one US coast to the other, even cheaper than USPS Priority Mail and Priority Mail Cubic. This is guaranteed two days or less, as opposed to Priority Mail; think SLA versus lack of same.

Such a discount is available to others, of course. I've written before about how I a month ago made $1700 in profit in three days by dropshipping a popular video game-related accessory from its manufacturer to dozens of customers around the country. I leveraged the manufacturer offering free FedEx shipping to fulfill my orders.

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