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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#361

Post by Nursie »

ATsch wrote: post #356
csunbird wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! Exactly. The salaries in EU are pitiful.

That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. Compared to the huge wage increase, the increase in living standard is very minor (and in some regards worse, e.g. the amount of time you lose daily to the car c…

They still are pretty pitiful across Europe even after that, compared to Canada and Australia as well as the US.

In the UK the problem seems to be the company owner/manager class see software people roughly the same as any other office worker, rather than as skilled producers of products. As a result they pay peanuts, and then are surprised when they get less than stellar results. Not sure what the reason might be elsewhere, but across the rest of the continent the pay seems even worse.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#362

Post by xadhominemx »

coolgod wrote: post #242
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

> No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] Those are some huge claims, which could have previously been said for many currently outdated technologies.

No one else is even trying

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#363

Post by xadhominemx »

DSingularity wrote: post #195
himlion wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the US will allow that. They probably have enough leverage.

I think they squandered that recently. We will see with Biden but the Trump administration basically encouraged Brexit and repeatedly adopted anti- EU positions in key geopolitical issues (Syria, NATO, Iran, Israel, and Ukraine). These things come with a cost and the EU will try to rectify this. Enhancing Chinas CPU tech by a few generations might be worth it if it can advance EU interests and ensure future good-fait…

It's not their decision. The ASML scanners rely on many critical US-origin technologies and the US can block shipment unilaterally.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#364

Post by xadhominemx »

Daho0n wrote: post #316
blibble wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean well, if you completely ignore that the EU pushed diesel over petrol, to protect its domestic industries exactly the same as the chicken thing neither are to protect your health, that's just a secondary effect that the EU uses for PR

Comparing chlorinated chicken to diesel is just insane.

You're right -- diesel is at least a million times more harmful

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#365

Post by baybal2 »

samat wrote: post #296
stelonix wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time with countries not directly aligned to the west, the preaching is for us to sell our strategic industries in name of liberalism and "economic openness", usually spreading lies and misinformation about the company's efficiency. When it's the other way around, it's protectionism and good old Keynesian economics: China can't buy that company, their 5g is evil etc. I know this first-hand because it has h…

There is a popular myth that 'there was a mighty USSR and some enemies ruined it'. The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy. That's just basic science. They exported oil and imported grain. Russia imported GRAIN for gods sake. Then oil prices collapsed. Next? They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. And then 'evil liberals/evil west destroying the great countr…

> The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy.

Which was a direct consequence of surreal levels of corruption, incompetence, and double digit percentages of country's GDP coming, and going out of existence annually as a result.

If anybody are to call names, those would've been the most hardcore brezhneviks themselves.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#366

Post by Glawen »

jryle70 wrote: post #329
jorvi wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace Such a hyperbole statement. Airbus has the edge in the narrowbody aircraft market, especially A321, while Boeing is plagued by 737 MAX problem. OTOH Airbus is well behind Boeing in the widebody segment. Boeing had 1,464 787 orders as of Aug 2019, 882 of those had been delivered. Airbus had only…

You conveniently forgot the a330 which is Airbus' most successful widebody.

You are right that for now, Boeing is better in widebodies. But let's see Boeing new aircraft program, because currently Airbus is better prepared for the future.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#367

Post by baybal2 »

worik wrote: post #354
jbay808 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. Those resources they ate through -- when were they accumulated? I find it hard to believe that they became a superpower by just coasting on the wealth that existed in 1917.

In 1917 they were in ruins. in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won. The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. They made the best rockets, fighter planes, super computers.... But they never made a TV with a remote control.

> The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible.

That's a regurgitation of a great lie. Krusev indicated in his memoire that economic data of Stalin's years was defying kindergarden level arithmetics, was utter garbage, and he gave few convincing examples of that, and here, I would believe him.

Union's economy saw few ups, and downs during its existence, and those under Stalin, and Breznev were not ups by any extend of imagination.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#368

Post by biggermike »

golfer wrote: post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

I can't speak for the entirety of the Europe but from my experience with certain countries in the EU, there is a pervasive culture of avoiding risk at all costs in favor of stability. The culture extends from the government to investors and even employees.

Government has no appetite for creative destruction and pushes policy favoring large incumbents over upstarts. Investors have no appetite for risk and only seek conservative investments. The best minds (that don't leave the EU) would rather work for large companies, schools, government, etc. than at smaller, riskier organizations that may not be around in a few years.

My family in Europe thought I was a loser and/or crazy for leaving a job as an adjunct professor to work at a 100-person startup. It makes no sense to us but it's understandable to someone who views landing a lifetime cushy bureaucratic job as the gold standard.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#369

Post by worik »

baybal2 wrote: post #367
worik wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1917 they were in ruins. in 1940 they went toe to toe with the worlds greatest industrial super power (or second greatest - depending how you count) in war and won. The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. They made the best rockets, fighter planes, super computers.... But they never made a TV with a remote control.

> The economic development achieved by the Soviet Union in the first half of its reign was incredible. That's a regurgitation of a great lie. Krusev indicated in his memoire that economic data of Stalin's years was defying kindergarden level arithmetics, was utter garbage, and he gave few convincing examples of that, and here, I would believe him. Union's economy saw few ups, and downs during its existence, and those…

The German army at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad/Volgagrad, and Lenningrad/St Petersburg found it was no lie.

Do not rely on state propaganda, look at the results

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#370

Post by jxramos »

dmix wrote: post #259
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

> Not the brilliant engineers you imagine are going to run it.

I'm still so fascinated by our minds' ability to interpolate and extrapolate to the platonic ideal of any ungrounded and unconstrained idea so readily. Yes big bureaucratic mass of brain trust experts going at it nonstop, how can you not yield great returns? I'm starting to awaken more and more to how messy and data dependent this world is. Ideals and declaration and promises just don't go far enough. But it's all so complicated and situational to figure out in advance why they don't go as far as we'd expect.

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