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My Experience at Apple

ex-apple-engineer.medium.com

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Re: My Experience at Apple

#481

Post by microtherion »

"If you are an Apple employee, please send this story to your upper management particularly Tim Cook."

What exactly should we say? "Hey Tim, this unnamed ex-employee, working on an unnamed and extremely vaguely characterized project in an unnamed organization, is accusing unnamed co-workers, managers, and HR-representatives of perpetrating truly appalling abuses on her. You should look into this at once!" ?

It's a difficult situation for the original author; I understand their desire to remain anonymous for their protection, and I understand their wish to have their allegations investigated, but I don't see a good way to reconcile these two goals, and especially not a good way to recruit allies for the second goal.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#482

Post by j1elo »

mcny wrote: post #415
koonsolo wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is expected that we do at least 15 - 25% overtime without compensation Is this still a thing as a developer in the western world? If any of my managers proposed this, I would laugh, then say "ah wait, you're serious?", and then laugh some more.

What are you supposed to do if your employment contract says you’re exempt (meaning no overtime pay)?

I even had to look for what it means to "be exempt".

> Exempt employees stand in contrast to non-exempt employees, which are paid minimum wage and overtime above the standard 40-hour workweek.

Wow if I had heard this in a random bar discussion I would called it complete and utter bullshit. The more I read HN the more it feels like being a worker in the US is like riding a horse through the wild west; anything can happen.

In my country the overtime pay is mandatory by law and it is also constrained to be a minimum of 75% more than the normal wage.

Btw it is also mandatory to enjoy your (minimum of) 23 days of holidays per year; no exchanging for other perks or money, like some comment mentions above.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#483

Post by corty »

slmjkdbtl wrote: post #446
zcw100 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've clearly never had this happen to you. Go ahead, document everything, it's not going to matter. That's not how this works. If you do that they'll either say, "Ok, I see what you've got there. But that's not what we're here to discuss. We're here to discuss your negative attitude" or they can look at your documentation and say, "So what were you charging the time you were doing all this documentation to?", or, "…

I haven't been in this kind of situation, but I'm curious if the HR's goal is to help the company, not individuals, how is protecting abusers and ignoring negative workplace dynamics helping the company?

In such situations: a) HR provides the appearance of some orderly process to settle such situations b) HR provides partial witnesses for settlement talks c) HR produces documentation about the situation to be used to the company's advantage in later lawsuits d) HR creates (beforehand) a net of regulations that a "troublemaker" can easily be found to have violated e) HR shields more important employees (i.e. bosses), because they represent more value to the company f) HR shields larger numbers of employees (i.e. the mob of abusers) against smaller numbers (i.e. the single victim), because larger numbers represent more value and higher risk of complications

Nowhere in the above list I did mention anything about workplace happiness or positive energy or anything. That is not up to HR, and if a "situation" arises it's too late anyways. Good interpersonal conditions are up to all persons and especially management. HR is just there as an executive, to sweep up the broken cutlery and make things look nice and tidy.

It isn't that an HR department doesn't want good working conditions. They are just in no position to impose them, only management is.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#484

Post by arvinsim »

rmk wrote: post #151
exApple-anon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some extra tidbits that didn't make it in because the edit timer ran out: - Despite the big release and herculean efforts, both of us were paid a fraction of our target bonus. This was the day I decided to move jobs. - I eventually grew some balls and told Apple to (a) pay me 2.5x during overtime (b) hire SREs for this critical service, or (c) go fuck themselves. They chose (c), which worked alright because our servi…

- The primary lesson I learnt is that it doesn't matter if you work hard. Nobody notices, and even if they do you will likely not get anything out of it. Do your job, but don't kill yourself over it. Work-life balance is king. This has been my experience as well. Nowadays I work hard only while most of the following are true: - I'm making top dollar (good salary + equity value is high) - Work is interesting (somethin…

This just convinced me to look for another job ASAP.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#485

Post by frongpik »

alexc9 wrote: post #379
romanovcode wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple comes off as a happy family friendly company, when in reality behind the scenes it’s a rule by fear culture. Just like any other company.

Not really. Worked for 5 companies, 2 were ruled by fear culture (including an explicit stack ranking of employees every 2 quarters, with the bottom ones being fired), one by desperation, one by... inertia maybe. The 5th is Google. Still can't figure out what it's ruled by exactly, but absolutely no fear, yet it mostly works. That's why I'm sticking around, I guess. I've moved teams and orgs quite a bit, so I don't t…

At least when I was there, google seemed like an island with melancholic, but smart and kind pandas who never had to compete for food, for the food was brought to them by a ferry, and never had to do any work, unless they had a spark of curiosity that made them explore an interesting rock or mess with sand on the beach. All pandas were consistently exceeding expectations, even if they slept on a tree most of the day.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#486

Post by monsieurbanana »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #200
rmk wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The primary lesson I learnt is that it doesn't matter if you work hard. Nobody notices, and even if they do you will likely not get anything out of it. Do your job, but don't kill yourself over it. Work-life balance is king. This has been my experience as well. Nowadays I work hard only while most of the following are true: - I'm making top dollar (good salary + equity value is high) - Work is interesting (somethin…

Wow, Great List! The last one (juniors calling the shots) really hit home; when I worked in , I was ultimately standing on the shoulder of midgets. The worse part? As a CS grad, I knew how to do better, but: nobody with the power to change things understood how or why what I was suggesting was better(!). I've long thought about this afterward, and concluded it's that 'my world' (which includes a lot of experience, an…

I'm curious, what kind of things did you learn in your cs curriculum that applies to that job, and the other coders didn't have?

I'll precise I'm not being sarcastic, genuinely curious. My math background could be better and I'm planning on improving that, but it would be for personal satisfaction as it's not hurting my work (legal tech). But maybe it is, you don't know what you don't know.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#487

Post by microtherion »

m0llusk wrote: post #274
arcatech wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internal culture was influenced by Steve Jobs. He was widely known for being an asshole who also happened to be an excellent salesman with a really good design sense. That's Apple.

That isn't really true. Steve Jobs was no nonsense, but was most often merely direct rather than rude. One thing which Steve Jobs did do was go to great length to assemble highly qualified teams for missions that were clearly stated and understood and which all involved agreed were worthwhile even if there might be quibbles over details. The Apple that rescued itself from near death with colorful and fun designs and…

Jobs himself was abusive. But in his second stint at Apple, he generally worked through layers of management who bore the brunt of his abusiveness, and oddly enough, for the most part, his managers did not emulate his abusive ways. The two members of senior management that I had a chance to interact with for some time (Bertrand Serlet and Jony Ive) did not at all strike me as abusive.

One of the reasons, I suspect, is that for all his flaws, Jobs was not particularly fond of flattery and imitation, and he did not want to surround himself with mini-mes. I can think of only one member of senior management who could have been described as having somewhat Jobs-like tendencies, and even he was not that close a resemblance.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#489

Post by computerdork »

KaiserPro wrote: post #305
computerdork wrote: post #244

In a huge way, this person's post seems true - from what I've seen being a software engineer for twenty years, many tech companies (especially those in the Bay Area) are fast paced, demanding, and stressful, even for experienced developers. It's often an unforgiving environment where you either perform or are let go - personally have had my own equal share of victories and massive failures - And as for abuse, have ha…

> ... At the same time, this is somewhat universal to most (not all) companies to some degree, especially tech. And the more important the work, the more stressful the environment often is. There is tough love, there is pressured work environment, however this is none of that. Even if half of this is made up or exaggerated, its out and out bullying. it is your responsibility as a work colleague to put a stop to this…

Yeah, wonder if that is the problem, it took me years to know how to stand up for myself. You have to be willing to walk away from a job at any moment, letting them know you're not happy (don't need to be a jerk about it, just show you don't need any job, no matter how good the company is). Because if you've got a manipulative lead and this person senses that you need or really want this job, this person will exploit you as far as they can.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#490

Post by 3131s »

m0llusk wrote: post #274
arcatech wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internal culture was influenced by Steve Jobs. He was widely known for being an asshole who also happened to be an excellent salesman with a really good design sense. That's Apple.

That isn't really true. Steve Jobs was no nonsense, but was most often merely direct rather than rude. One thing which Steve Jobs did do was go to great length to assemble highly qualified teams for missions that were clearly stated and understood and which all involved agreed were worthwhile even if there might be quibbles over details. The Apple that rescued itself from near death with colorful and fun designs and…

Jobs was a fucking asshole and should have died in prison along with the rest of the criminals.
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