Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why isn't his comment about France useful? That's how we improve, by seeing what others do better.
The EU has better employee protections than the US, shocker My future downvotes shall remain my little secret :)
My Experience at Apple
241–250 of 840 posts
Re: My Experience at Apple
#242It’s a long, rambling post with some fairly vague and difficult to falsify accusations. I have no connections to Apple (other than as a consumer), but I could not wade through the article enough to determine if I thought there was an actual smoking gun. I suspect the story would be much more powerful if it were 1/5 as long and stuck to the material facts.
What kind of smoking gun are you looking for? Given that Steve Jobs was partly famous for his capriciousness in how he treated people I imagine his example set a baseline of acceptable toxic behavior in the company so it’s not unreasonable for me to imagine that a team like this could emerge given the apparent lack of oversight by HR and upper management and all the secrecy and isolation between teams that Apple is f…
There were other managers who were not toxic, and knew how to develop a team and reward/motivate them, but most of them stagnated and never went anywhere promotion-wise.
I also found the place very clique-y. There was definitely a small in-group, with the rest in the out-group, and it seemed to have nothing to do with tenure, seniority, or level. They would have their own private off-sites to do who knows what. I think they called it Top-100 or something while I was there. Everything was siloed and secret so you could never be sure.
EDIT: Reading the article, I see the cliques were specifically mentioned. I have no doubt the author is for real.
Re: My Experience at Apple
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not an immigrant, so I don't have your perspective. But I wonder the same about H1B's: I don't understand the allure of the United States (besides the money?). Our industry is horrible to its H1B's, H1B exploitation is rampant and disgusting. FAANG hires them so that they can exploit them as cheap labor that can't risk leaving. Why not move somewhere else if you want to work abroad? I can think of so many better…
Thats the thing, most of us immigrant does not come from well-off countries. We couldn't just book a ticket and get visa to work in , say Canada or Japan. Our passport power is shit. All things considered US is still the most welcoming for most of us who want to improve our life. Where I come from, I can got thrown into jail if they found my religious non-affiliation, combined with my racial identity. Not sure for ot…
Re: My Experience at Apple
#244... At the same time, this is somewhat universal to most (not all) companies to some degree, especially tech. And the more important the work, the more stressful the environment often is.
Could be way off on this, but just my impression is that since they are a newly graduated PhD working at their first job, am wondering if the shock of that first position (which was also at Apple, who is known to be very demanding), was a bit too much to handle - and if you also have a bad lead, you're in for real trouble. Apologies to this person as I wasn't there and have no real idea on what happened, but the workplace is a tough environment more often than not.
Know this only an estimate, but in my humble opinion, Glassdoor is generally in the right ballpark when it comes to a company's actual culture (how it treats its people), and 4.2 for Apple is really good - did a contract job at Stubhub a few years back, which when I worked there was a 2.8 (it's now a 3.3). And yeah, it was really that bad. The politics and scapegoating were the most intense I've ever seen (got caught up on the wrong side of this majorly myself. Felt like I was in one of those targets at those Carnival games where people line up to take shots at you).
Yeah, and tech is ruthless but, as another person said, typically in the Bay Area it usually isn't abusive about it. In the socially aware Bay-Area, they often won't tell you directly that they have an issue with you like they do on the East Coast, but through silence and innuendo - you'll feel it before they actually tell you they're not happy.
And sorry to hear about this person's visa issues, the stress this has caused my foreign friends is immense. Hope they're okay!
Re: My Experience at Apple
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well you did specifically say 'assert their own boundaries'. That's victim blaming to the extent there is nothing someone can do to assert themselves other than basically leaving.
Sometimes a bit of pushing back helps. A lot of people's bite is worse than their bite. Plus some people are frankly bullies and if stand up to them you see their true colors, as cowards.
Re: My Experience at Apple
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can put just about any company in the "Apple" role here. A bad manager anywhere can cause a workgroup to turn toxic. I've seen it happen literally everywhere I've ever worked, though luckily only 1st hand at one location. (Actually there was one exception: working at a Barnes & Noble during college. I'd heard horror stories about other locations while I was there, but the store I worked at was run by an extremely…
Any large corporation that gets remotely near the headcount as Apple will have enough variance across team cultures that there will inevitably be cesspools of toxicity, true. But there's still the question if certain orgs foster a higher or lower standard across the org, and what factors contribute to it.
Sometimes it’s down to a particular manager, but sometimes it can just be the consequences of a bad decision taken further up the food chain. This can leave a team in a no-win situation where even a good team lead can end up in a mess with no good options. I was at one employer where this happened and the team lead in question fell on his sword and quit rather than beat his team to death. I ended up taking on some of his responsibilities and team members and got some additional resources to deal with the re-org, so it worked out well for the team members and the company. It also gave me my first taste of management. It cost the guy his job though, which was grossly unfair. Not many mangers would have the guts and integrity to do something like that, and even if they did there’s no guarantee it would actually benefit the team. They could just be replaced by a tyrant.
The only answer is to be open and honest about what you think and principled in your own actions. Call out bad behaviour where you see it and say when you see mistakes being made. If you aren’t prepared to do so, why should anyone else? Too many people silently tie the line and keep quiet and then wonder why these things spiral out of control and end in disaster. It’s because nobody said anything or did anything about it. We have to be prepared to take responsibility for calling out what’s happening around us and what we do about it as employees. It’s not somebody else’s problem, it’s our problem. Don’t be afraid of losing your job, it may well happen but jobs come and go. Having principles carries a cost, but one I think is worth paying.
Re: My Experience at Apple
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't understand the allure of FAANG for residents besides the money. The thing is, for us H1B workers, we have very limited options. And these big companies have the best track record in processing GC for us. Unless these regulations got changed, and give smaller companies more chances. Given how powerful big companies are, I probably wouldn't be surprised if they also lobbied regulations against small companies h…
I'm not an immigrant, so I don't have your perspective. But I wonder the same about H1B's: I don't understand the allure of the United States (besides the money?). Our industry is horrible to its H1B's, H1B exploitation is rampant and disgusting. FAANG hires them so that they can exploit them as cheap labor that can't risk leaving. Why not move somewhere else if you want to work abroad? I can think of so many better…
Re: My Experience at Apple
#248It’s a long, rambling post with some fairly vague and difficult to falsify accusations. I have no connections to Apple (other than as a consumer), but I could not wade through the article enough to determine if I thought there was an actual smoking gun. I suspect the story would be much more powerful if it were 1/5 as long and stuck to the material facts.
They know that when it comes to the illegal stuff - you do it off-the-record. Then it just become "he said, she said", which is very difficult to prove.
They are experts at gaslighting, which ties in with the point above. Not only can the invalidate your claims about (difficult to prove) verbal abuse, but they can actually turn it against you, by claiming that you're obviously mentally unstable / hearing things due to workload / not fit for the job / etc.
Especially for narcissists, they tend to be very good at forming networks and friendships which benefit them - and in turn can produce cliques like this.
They know what buttons to push in the organization, to cover their own ass, and make the other party look incompetent. This includes creating extensive paper trails, frequent meetings to establish some opinion on a person, and what not.
Prolific abusers are hard to catch because they are very good at it, and because they create (or join) environments which are chaotic, and tie in multiple people on the abuse (whether want it or not - pretty much in the same way that bullies in school rarely do the bullying themselves, but form groups to do it).
In this case, it's even worse - because there's such an extreme imbalance of power. On one side you have a fresh hire, without any permanent VISA, completely dependent on the job. On the other side, you have established bullies in clique, with decades of employment in the company.
And not only that - it all happened within a company that enforces a strict culture of non-disclosure. It's hard to go public with information which may include explicitly confidential work/data.
Re: My Experience at Apple
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
The EU has better employee protections than the US, shocker My future downvotes shall remain my little secret :)
For someone from "land of the brave and the land of the free" or whatever the US anthem says, you're awfully defeatist :-)
Re: My Experience at Apple
#250This is awful. I'm sorry that happened to you. However, If Apple refuse to take actions, I will interview with major media outlets describing the experience in more details and I will release a list of all individuals involved from senior management to the HR director and all the evidence as public record. You're wasting your time if you think they're going to do anything with this kind of approach. Get a lawyer firs…