My Experience at Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: My Experience at Apple

#361

Post by andreilys » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

meekrohprocess wrote: post #39

reactordev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, you can fill in the blank with any FAANG company with this story. I’ve heard it a thousand times. Toxic management. Sorry you went through that, sorry that was your first taste of engineering out of college. Glad you stuck with it. It’s a tough spot to be. Do you roll over and do the job your being yelled at to do even though you know any concessions are BS? Or like the senior folks, do you walk? It’s a really…

I don't think so. I've worked at other FAANG companies which had these sorts of posts written about them, and I've witnessed plenty of situations that I would call "abusive". But what I read in this article was beyond the pale. I never felt like anybody adjacent to any of my roles might have cause to fear for their physical safety. Reviews were used as political tools and occasional sources of psychological abuse, su…

Facebook had an engineer commit suicide and the company tried to cover it up. Going as far as firing an engineer that spoke up about it - https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvgn9q/do-not-discuss-the-in...

So yes, this does happen. Typically to visa workers who are easily exploitable due to their precarious status in the country.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#362

Post by bdowling » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

CivBase wrote: post #129

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #80

For anyone experiencing workplace harassment, this article is a great example of what not to do. Instead, document everything happening to you with evidence, speak with HR about incidents as they arise, and if they don't take action, seek legal counsel. Doing anything else will paint you in a bad light.

According to the article, the person was documenting things. They even included a picture of a meeting invite. They also went to HR many times. Only thing they didn't do was seek legal council, but that's probably a hard step to take when you're on a work visa - especially when Apple is your legal opponent.

> ... especially when Apple is your legal opponent.

If the facts are on the employee's side, then many lawyers would take such a case on contingency because Apple (or any large, successful company) has very deep pockets to pay a judgment or settlement.

Conversely, finding a lawyer to sue a small employer on contingency would be more difficult because the small employer could declare bankruptcy, making collecting a judgment difficult or impossible.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#363

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

qppo wrote: post #336

derivagral wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had a startup that hasn't roped me into a production support on-call for a month or more in addition to regular duties. Under 10 engineers, 50 engineers, 500+ engineers: they've all done this.

I've never worked on a product where it ever made sense to be "on call." I'm an engineer, not a doctor.

It’s probably obvious, but I’d suggest never working on a product doctors use.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#364

Post by Philip-J-Fry » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

qppo wrote: post #336

derivagral wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had a startup that hasn't roped me into a production support on-call for a month or more in addition to regular duties. Under 10 engineers, 50 engineers, 500+ engineers: they've all done this.

I've never worked on a product where it ever made sense to be "on call." I'm an engineer, not a doctor.

If something goes catastrophically wrong at 1am, caused by some unforeseen bug in the code, who fixes it? Who diagnoses that an issue flooding the logs is not an issue with your software but something else down the line?

I think it makes sense to have an on-call rota. Some people do it for a week or so. Cycle it through the team.

There needs to be someone knowledgeable to call in case of issues.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#365

Post by oblio » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

worker767424 wrote: post #356

oblio wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been bashing Apple about BatteryGate a few times. You know, where they hid information from their customers in a way that benefitted their sales. They were sued and they settled. Which is basically admitting guilt, as these lawsuits are never lost by corporations (they either drag them out forever or if there too afraid of what losing implies, they settle). Each time I'm downvoted. The Apple Shiny Aluminum Corpo…

Batterygate looks bad, but the technical reason of the battery not being able to supply enough current for the CPU to run at full speed without crashing makes sense, so I think it's mostly a case of communicating the change poorly.

There we go again :-)

It's called plausible deniability. They're not stupid.

Why would we ever trust the messaging of a company that:

1. Has removed the headphone jack claiming there wasn't enough room inside the phone for it.

2. While "accidentally" deciding to sell a $150 pair of wireless earbuds just as they removed the previous accessory.

3. Now has removed the charger, claiming that they want to reduce pollution.

4. While almost all their equipment is not reparable (which is much, much worse for the environment!).

5. And also "accidentally" introducing a $40 wireless charger just as they removed the old charger from the box.

Repeat ad nauseam.

Which one is more likely?

1. They had an internal meeting where they had to choose between

A) shut up and have people replace their phones, so more $$$

B) say something, deal with angry customers, best case scenario make $0, worst case scenario have to spend some $$$

and they chose A), cause, you know, corporation + $$$.

2. They couldn't figure out how to communicate the issue and its trade-offs correctly? The company that invests probably billions in carefully designed marketing?

Oh, and assuming you're right.

Why are they losing the lawsuit? Why do they have to pay tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars? Why are they being sued in Europe, too?

It's the third time I'm having the same discussion here :-)

Apple Shiny Aluminum Distortion Field, I'm telling ya!

Re: My Experience at Apple

#366

Post by throwaway44295 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

justpoolitics wrote: post #238

I feel sorry for anyone who has not had many years of corporate experience who enters a situation like this. Toxic survival politics at a big tech company are a triple black diamond ski slope and if you are just learning to ski, you will get murdered by making a single mistake. Knowing what I know now, human beings can behave in shockingly awful ways and politics can become extremely distorted in these environments.…

Exactly this, this should become common knowledge, especially among the people who actually care to create something great. Work is work and private life is private life.

I've also worked in very toxic environments but nowadays I'm not surprised by anything anymore. People ask for uncomfortable/impossible accomplishments? Just explain in a very objective way what needs to be done, where the projects is at and how much effort it is normally. Also I highly encourage people to study the Jira boards (or whatever tool you use), chances are it's full of non-sense but also might contain hard facts how long tasks really take by other more established team members. This will make you confident on what the real metrics are and see what is a nonsense request and what not.

When people say slightly insulting things it's also best to not be emotional, say nothing or if you feel creative to respond with a respectful but tough response. In any case, it's normal to switch every 2 years and in larger shops there are enough unexpected but safe opportunities to tell about this nonsense. (E.g. when quitting)

Also I strongly agree with not speaking to HR/managers, it usually just gets worse (=stressful) the more you do it.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#367

Post by andreilys » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #345

m0llusk wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't really true. Steve Jobs was no nonsense, but was most often merely direct rather than rude. One thing which Steve Jobs did do was go to great length to assemble highly qualified teams for missions that were clearly stated and understood and which all involved agreed were worthwhile even if there might be quibbles over details. The Apple that rescued itself from near death with colorful and fun designs and…

Direct is basically a euphemism for rude, in that it indicates lack of empathy. It might not intentionally be so, but usually shows that the speaker puts other priorities ahead of the emotional state of the recipient.

One can be both empathetic and direct.

Jobs was highly empathetic, it’s why he was able to understand the customer so well and why he was famous for saying “the customer doesn’t know what they want”.

Understanding someone’s emotional state does not mean you need to coddle them.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#368

Post by thewarrior » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

albertopv wrote: post #278

If it was me, I wouldn't have lasted so long. No way. I worked for mid size companies, and I found envs quite toxic, but this is a whole new level for me. I'm glad I decided a long time ago my life worths more than working at any $faang.

That’s because you aren’t on a visa ?

Re: My Experience at Apple

#369

Post by tsm_sf » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

exApple-anon wrote: post #9

Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. Unlike others, I actually find this story fairly believable. When I first joined Apple, straight out of college - a good program, top three in the country - I was abused similarly. I joined a team that was on a project behind schedule. Our manager was a brusque, no-nonsense sort of dude. But he clearly had anger problems. On the team were 2 senior engineers, me, and a junior e…

Haven't seen cocaine mentioned anywhere, and I know for a fact it was a bit of a thing there back in the day.

Re: My Experience at Apple

#370

Post by jonas21 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

tdhz77 wrote: post #27

I must try and understand my bias towards certain tech companies. When somebody says something bad about Facebook I instantly believe, but for some reason I had to really dig into this Apple engineer and it took me longer to believe them. Truth is harder to discern than I had thought.

Great marketing isn't just about an individual product -- it's about your entire brand. It influences the way people perceive your company as a whole, how they feel about it emotionally. And Apple's marketing is second to none.