EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#321

Post by creato » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #285

tsimionescu wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a great example of what I'm saying. The vaccine is payed for by states - they had a 100% guaranteed worldwide market. Whether they invested their own money (like BioNTech) or were explicitly financed by a state (like Moderna and Pfizer), the money for that research will ultimately be payed almost entirely by the state.

States are making monopolies with their militaries. I don't need a state to buy the vaccine, actually I signed up for a private vaccination, and I would pay significantly more than the states, but states are given priority because of their power.

I think there are more differences than militaries between states and what is essentially kickstarter.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#322

Post by Radim » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

rualca wrote: post #152

petra wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ?

> But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ? The OP forgot to mention that one of the goals in the Horizon2020 projects is to provide incentives to create pan-european collaborations involving industrial, academic, and institutional organizations. In short, they are aimed to bridge the gap between academia and industry, and also create synergies between multiple orga…

As someone who came from academia, now runs a commercial company, and having participated in several large consortia projects (including Horizon 2020), I find your perspective… charming.

I hope you never get to experience how the sausage is made. And where you taxes really go.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#323

Post by usr1106 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

wwtrv wrote: post #277

justicezyx wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know nVidia bought Arm, but what is about DeepMind being lost as domestic industry? It raises to prominence after becoming a Google wholly owned subdiary. I have repeated multiple times in other comments that DeepMind's success is at least built on top of Google's tech and capital. Interesringly, Google's tech infrastructure were blueprinted by a lot of pioneers and two of the most well known are Urs Hozle and Luiz…

I assume, they meant the UK finally fully leaving the EU this year rather than the sale to Nvidia

Right. So if the Nvidia deal succeeds ARM will be US American.

I have no idea whether any of the relevant antitrust official could still stop it.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#324

Post by mafribe » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #103

skrebbel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

ARM IP, even full architectural license, is relatively small percentage of the cost of a semiconductor. Know-how for fables microarchitecture designs is widely distributed. Most fabless work goes to specialized asics. It's the inability for SMIC to obtain EUV lithography equipment for their sub-7nm process technologies from ASML that prevents China from getting into high-end semiconductors, not the domestic microarch…

I agree with you.

Here is an interesting question: how long will it take China to catch up? I predict 10 years! The Chinese government sees a leading position in semi manufacture as being of extreme strategic importance. There are several reasons why I think China will succeed other than government strategy: the size of the Chinese market (already the biggest processor market in the world), the ease with which Taiwanese semi expertise can be brought to China (legally, salaries are just higher in Shanghai than in Taipei).

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#325

Post by blibble » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

Daho0n wrote: post #316

blibble wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean well, if you completely ignore that the EU pushed diesel over petrol, to protect its domestic industries exactly the same as the chicken thing neither are to protect your health, that's just a secondary effect that the EU uses for PR

Comparing chlorinated chicken to diesel is just insane.

you're possibly right

diesel particulate emissions as a direct result of the EU legislation protecting EU industry cause about tens of thousands of deaths a year, mostly in Europe

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/15/diesel-e...

meanwhile chlorinated chicken has killed no-one

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#326

Post by usr1106 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

CountSessine wrote: post #312

DSingularity wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they squandered that recently. We will see with Biden but the Trump administration basically encouraged Brexit and repeatedly adopted anti- EU positions in key geopolitical issues (Syria, NATO, Iran, Israel, and Ukraine). These things come with a cost and the EU will try to rectify this. Enhancing Chinas CPU tech by a few generations might be worth it if it can advance EU interests and ensure future good-fait…

Enhancing China’s CPU tech even a single generation is in the EU’s interest in exactly 0 alternate universes, along with this one. As long as the US has the world’s only reserve currency and as long as the EU economy - especially the productive bit in the North - is built on exporting to the all-powerful US consumer, the EU has very little leverage in its affairs with the US.

> the EU has very little leverage in its affairs with the US.

The final word has not been spoken. Construction of Nord Stream 2 has recently been restarted despite the US threatening with sanctions.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#327

Post by mafribe » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #236

WanderPanda wrote: post #82

I might have looked positively at this if the bureaucrats would have actual skin in the game and would be judged by the outcome in 5-10 years. But in the likely case that this will fail and most of the money will be drained through lobbyism etc., nobody will talk about it and they will come up with the next thing they can throw money at to come across as being super innovative. Disclaimer: I used to work at a company…

Government spending isn't the problem, it's who gets the money. In the US I see it all going to established players. Which is fine for stuff like finding a COVID-19 vaccine. But is a total disaster for promoting innovation. I have a computer engineering degree and have watched nothing of interest happen in semiconductor manufacturing for over 20 years. Yes we have blue LEDs now. Yes we have fast video cards. But if y…

I do NOT believe that you can deliver "orders of magnitude better performance" general purpose multicore processors for low millions of dollars!

The salary for the verification engineers would already probably exceed low millions of dollars after 3 years. Not to mention licensing cost for EDA tools you need to tame billions of transistors.

I will give you low millions of dollars if you have a viable path to orders of magnitude better performance general purpose processors.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#328

Post by bshanks » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

If 50% of this is loans and 50% are grants, and if all of the grants are over 3 years, then that's 145/(2*3) = 24.17 billion Euros in grants per year, or $29.33 billion dollars per year. By contrast, in the US, US National Science Foundation (NSF) is the grant-giving agency for most basic science/math research in the US, except biology which is under a different agency (NIH) (also I think DOE funds some energy-related research)) total budget is $8.3 billion per year. So if these assumptions are correct, then this initiative alone is over 3.5x the total US NSF budget.

This is not completely an apples-to-apples comparison because this is obviously applied rather than basic research.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#329

Post by jryle70 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

jorvi wrote: post #234

GregarianChild wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aerospace, energy, semiconductors, telecom, drugs/biotech The EU lost leadership in all of them! (And some others!)

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace

Such a hyperbole statement.

Airbus has the edge in the narrowbody aircraft market, especially A321, while Boeing is plagued by 737 MAX problem.

OTOH Airbus is well behind Boeing in the widebody segment. Boeing had 1,464 787 orders as of Aug 2019, 882 of those had been delivered. Airbus had only sold 913 A350. A380 has been discontinued while Boeing can still count on B748 freighter.

Of course 2020 threw a wrench to the airline industry and it remains to be seen how well it will recover post pandemic. Both Airbus and Boeing are affected deeply.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#330

Post by jbay808 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

samat wrote: post #296

stelonix wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time with countries not directly aligned to the west, the preaching is for us to sell our strategic industries in name of liberalism and "economic openness", usually spreading lies and misinformation about the company's efficiency. When it's the other way around, it's protectionism and good old Keynesian economics: China can't buy that company, their 5g is evil etc. I know this first-hand because it has h…

There is a popular myth that 'there was a mighty USSR and some enemies ruined it'. The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy. That's just basic science. They exported oil and imported grain. Russia imported GRAIN for gods sake. Then oil prices collapsed. Next? They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more. And then 'evil liberals/evil west destroying the great countr…

> They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more.

Those resources they ate through -- when were they accumulated? I find it hard to believe that they became a superpower by just coasting on the wealth that existed in 1917.