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UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

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Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#231

Post by Paradigma11 »

hndudette wrote: post #95
matthewmacleod wrote: post #46

Little to celebrate here. The main outcome is that it’s now going to be much more of a pain in the arse to perform lots of basic functions that we took for granted. There is now a bunch more red tape involved involved in buying or selling goods or services to other European counties. It’s harder and more expensive to move for work or education, both to and from the UK. The UK now has a customs border inside it’s own…

Wouldn't it be better to replace the EU with an expansive multilateral free trade treaty that encompasses the same states? Why do we need an additional layer of government?

The world is becoming a smaller place with bigger fish every year. Without the EU powers like china and russia would have it even easier to dominate smaller european nations politics.

Just being able to deflect other parties to negiotiate with the EU instead of national goverments can be a help: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-e...

A tighter foreign and military policy integration could also enable more independence from the US but most EU countries prefer to reap the dividends of the waning pax americana than to spend necessary ressources on defense.

Interesting multipolar times are ahead where standing alone might not be the best choice.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#232

Post by rsynnott »

smnrchrds wrote: post #203
hndudette wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just compare the economic growth per capita of Norway (not in EU) with Sweden (in EU). It's at best an exaggeration that leaving the EU is going to have a significant deleterious impact on the UK.

Norway is in EEA. For most (all?) economic purposes, being in EU, EEA, and Switzerland is equivalent. The same rules, procedures, responsibilities, and privileges apply whether the country is a member of EU or EEA.

Being in the EEA is somewhat worse than being in the EU; in particular, it's not in the customs union, so a lot of small businesses will not sell direct to Norway, and Norwegian SMEs are less likely to be direct exporters or to directly import their inputs. Being outside the customs union creates opportunities for middlemen, but otherwise isn't great for most people.

Norway's arrangement is much more comprehensive than the UK's, though.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#233

Post by monoideism »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #227
monoideism wrote: post #161

I'm amazed at reading British HNers who are presumably mostly rational calling Brexit "evil" and "racist" on this thread. I personally think Brexit is probably an ill-advised move for the UK, but the feelings provoked here by leaving a historically recent trade and cultural union are far, far out of proportion with the deed itself. If anything actually destroys your country, it'll be the exaggerated emotional respons…

Hello, rational British resident here. The thing is: five years of this process has worked to make me much more pissed off than I was. It might not have been clear from outside just how toxic this all was, and will have driven many of us away from our initial position of "this was merely a bad decision that we will work around". It’s not specifically about the mechanics of the EU membership or "leaving a historically…

> The country won't be destroyed – but it will be permanently weakened

Oh, I don't know. Keep it up with the overheated rhetoric and I suspect you all will succeed. Just ask your neighbors in SE Europe, where I spent part of the 90s, what that looks like.

And don't get me wrong, we're heading in the exact same direction here in the US.

By the way, this got a fair number of upvotes, so I'm glad to see that at least a portion of HN agrees.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#234

Post by monoideism »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #212
monoideism wrote: post #161

I'm amazed at reading British HNers who are presumably mostly rational calling Brexit "evil" and "racist" on this thread. I personally think Brexit is probably an ill-advised move for the UK, but the feelings provoked here by leaving a historically recent trade and cultural union are far, far out of proportion with the deed itself. If anything actually destroys your country, it'll be the exaggerated emotional respons…

Leaving a trade zone will cause issues. Removing free movement of people is the evil bit.

Really? So borders are evil now? Can you explain why you believe that? Do you think the global (not just European) nation-state paradigm is evil?

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#235

Post by w_t_payne »

onecommentman wrote: post #191

What puzzles me the most about Brexit is reflected in the more...effusive...posts here as well. The overheated rhetoric and amazing one-sidedness of the discussion in the online media. Way over the top if you just step into the discussion as an objective observer. It’s been only 48 years, they are all supposedly mature democracies, what is the big deal? I could only think of two excuses: * some powerful entities had…

The true nature of all of this can be seen quite clearly in the fundamentally xenophobic, dishonest and hateful manner with which the Leave campaign comported itself, as well as the tidal wave of racist and intolerant behaviour which accompanied the Brexit vote and stains everything to do with it.

There are solid reasons why Brexit is the darling of the resurgent neofascist movement, and it should all be seen as part of the same picture.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#236

Post by Veen »

Symbiote wrote: post #45
hedora wrote: post #18

If they decide to rejoin at some point, perhaps the EU could demand elimination of the pound.

Much more important is democratic reform. No more unelected religious leaders in Parliament, no more unelected upper house at all, and a replacement for FPTP for the Commons. However, I don't think the Copenhagen Criteria are this specific.

Why don’t you demand the abolition of the monarchy while you’re at it? This sort of talk delights Brexiteers because all but a tiny number of hardcore pro-EU zealots will respond with a raised middle finger.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#237

Post by hollerith »

stoneman24 wrote: post #160
Fifer82 wrote: post #60

As a Scotsman, this is a sad day. My only hope is that we leave the Union and that Ireland can work out it's differences and pursue reunification. There is nothing else left for it. A tragic time to be British and nothing to celebrate here.

As a fellow Scot, i will vote SNP in next years Scottish election. That election could be a landslide for them, Leading to another independence vote. Even before the effects of Brexit are felt, there is a slight lead for the yes camp. Perhaps we need to be a poor small country in Europe with a voice rather than ignored in Westminster. A sad day.

If Scotland leaves the UK, how many Scots do you predict will leave Scotland so that they can continue to be citizens of the UK?

(Please assume that Westminster will offer UK citizenship to any Scot that moves to England, Wales or Northern Ireland and applies for UK citizenship.)

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#238

Post by [deleted] »

monoideism wrote: post #233
matthewmacleod wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, rational British resident here. The thing is: five years of this process has worked to make me much more pissed off than I was. It might not have been clear from outside just how toxic this all was, and will have driven many of us away from our initial position of "this was merely a bad decision that we will work around". It’s not specifically about the mechanics of the EU membership or "leaving a historically…

> The country won't be destroyed – but it will be permanently weakened Oh, I don't know. Keep it up with the overheated rhetoric and I suspect you all will succeed. Just ask your neighbors in SE Europe, where I spent part of the 90s, what that looks like. And don't get me wrong, we're heading in the exact same direction here in the US. By the way, this got a fair number of upvotes, so I'm glad to see that at least a…

[deleted]

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#240

Post by atc »

orev wrote: post #192
onecommentman wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please support your first assertion with a comparison of the quality of life of humans on the planet, decade by decade, starting with whatever date you think you civilization started, and the changes you project for yourself in the “darkest hour” and how they compare...

The entire history since civilization started has been leading us to this point — climate change. Ever since fire was tamed (arguably defining the beginning of civilization), the emission of greenhouse gasses has been leading us here. And we have known it for decades, if not longer. Now it’s here, and this is the fight we need to be united for; not some trite idea of “quality of life”. This is about the whole of huma…

Why does the UK need political union with the EU to achieve that?
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