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UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

rte.ie

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Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#191

Post by onecommentman »

What puzzles me the most about Brexit is reflected in the more...effusive...posts here as well. The overheated rhetoric and amazing one-sidedness of the discussion in the online media. Way over the top if you just step into the discussion as an objective observer. It’s been only 48 years, they are all supposedly mature democracies, what is the big deal?

I could only think of two excuses:

* some powerful entities had made some very big bets in the derivatives market tied to this and it was worth anything to not lose on those trades. Who knows, but seems extreme even for those sorts.

* there is some deep existential reason that UK’s membership was key to the EU enterprise.

The only thing I, as an outsider, could conjecture on the second point was the UK provided “karmic cover” for Germany (and France) to directly control the other EU member Nations.

In the media, Merkel’s statements were seemingly taken as the de facto EU position. Macron made an out-of-band agreement with Merkel, that made no sense if the EU was their platform for interaction. From an outsider perspective it seemed that Germany was running the show.

But remember Napoleon? Remember the Kaiser? Remember Kaiser 2.0 (Hitler)? But then remember the UK...they didn’t try a “Deutschland over all of us” or a Napoleonic union at the point of a bayonet. They comported themselves rather well.

So the EU really isn’t Germany finally winning WWII if the UK...hey wait, UK, where are you going?

That might be worth distorting the public debate in the UK over...

Purely an ignorant outsider’s take.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#192

Post by orev »

onecommentman wrote: post #189
miltondts wrote: post #69

Our civilization is about to face its darkest hour. We need everyone working together, not just in the EU. Instead this type of isolationist response seems to be what we are going for, not just in the UK but the US and other places. Very sad that we don't seem to have learned much form the history of the civilizations that came before us.

Please support your first assertion with a comparison of the quality of life of humans on the planet, decade by decade, starting with whatever date you think you civilization started, and the changes you project for yourself in the “darkest hour” and how they compare...

The entire history since civilization started has been leading us to this point — climate change. Ever since fire was tamed (arguably defining the beginning of civilization), the emission of greenhouse gasses has been leading us here. And we have known it for decades, if not longer. Now it’s here, and this is the fight we need to be united for; not some trite idea of “quality of life”. This is about the whole of human survival.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#193

Post by ardy42 »

hndudette wrote: post #95
matthewmacleod wrote: post #46

Little to celebrate here. The main outcome is that it’s now going to be much more of a pain in the arse to perform lots of basic functions that we took for granted. There is now a bunch more red tape involved involved in buying or selling goods or services to other European counties. It’s harder and more expensive to move for work or education, both to and from the UK. The UK now has a customs border inside it’s own…

Wouldn't it be better to replace the EU with an expansive multilateral free trade treaty that encompasses the same states? Why do we need an additional layer of government?

> Wouldn't it be better to replace the EU with an expansive multilateral free trade treaty that encompasses the same states? Why do we need an additional layer of government?

I don't know much about it, but I suppose if you want a free trade without a race to the bottom or a "giant sucking sound," you'd need something like a government to set standards across the area.

Also, it seems like there's some obvious benefits to a currency union (drawbacks too), and if you want to have that, then you need some kind of body to manage it.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#194

Post by blibble »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #176
hndudette2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU's stated objectives go far beyond just facilitating free trade, with most of their budget allocated to unrelated projects and goals. To the extent that the EU does facilitate free trade, which is indeed one of its goals, I have no objection, but I believe we can do away with a huge amount of big government/globalist excess and just go for an explicit multilateral FTA with as little bureaucratic overhead as necessa…

This sort of thing was the kind of statement we heard pretty frequently over the course of the Brexit process, but it’s really horribly nonspecific - “big government excess”, “bureaucratic overhead” etc. The total EU budget is about 2% of the total public spending of the member states. That’s a chunk of change at at international level, but is relatively lightweight as a layer of government. Much of its spending is i…

> The total EU budget is about 2% of the total public spending of the member states. That’s a chunk of change at at international level, but is relatively lightweight as a layer of government.

this argument is constantly stated and it's still as bogus as ever

the vast majority cost of implementing powers delegated to the EU is borne by national budgets

once correctly attributed: the "lightweight" label becomes somewhat of a joke

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#195

Post by paul_f »

w_t_payne wrote: post #89

Brexit was a triumph of evil men. We were foolish and naive, and did not expect these craven lies to have such dire effect. This tidal wave of pent up hatred unleashed from these deep and forgotten pools of animus and fear. Nonetheless -- the world keeps on turning. Evil may win a battle here and there, but it cannot be allowed to win the war. What these vandals destroy can always be built up anew.

LOL. Was this satire?

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#196

Post by blibble »

kmeisthax wrote: post #172
mhh__ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost entropic really - there was a genuinely depressing YouGov graph from a few years ago which plotted the number of people who actually think the EU is an important issue vs. time: The number is almost nil (even the wonks didn't care) until the year/s directly leading up to the referendum. Europe is a tricky problem, but the way Brexit specifically has happened (Lie, Damned Lies, and fake statistics - at bes…

I'm not a fan of the "people can't be trusted with international law" thing. I mean, I also hate Brexit, but I hate policy laundering too. And international agreements are really good at just that, because they aren't democratically accessible. Ironically, the EU tried to solve this problem: it had a parliament with democratic elections that actually made decisions about the kinds of international treaties EU member…

> Ironically, the EU tried to solve this problem: it had a parliament with democratic elections that actually made decisions about the kinds of international treaties EU member states would adopt.

the EU parliament can't do any of these things

it can't even propose legislation

at best it's a rubber stamp for the Council and the Commission

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#197

Post by lemonspat »

onecommentman wrote: post #186
Someone wrote: post #36

…and Gibraltar will enter the Schengen zone, abolishing all border controls on its border with Spain ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55497084 ) Once that comes into effect, the Spanish/Gibraltarian police will be allowed to enter Gibraltar/Spain when in hot pursuit and to continue observation operations ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Police_and_judic... )

When will similar restrictions be removed for Moroccan police?

Is Morocco in the EU or schengen? I expect those are the prerequisites
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