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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#91

Post by rapsey »

elric wrote: post #68
rapsey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horizon2020 for instance

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

Exactly. The rules and bureaucratic burden of getting involved defeats the entire point. Even if you go in with the most noble of intentions.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#92

Post by jryle70 »

wongarsu wrote: post #49
zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

The US recently spent their way into a cutting edge private space launch provider industry, and that seems like a roaring success. What makes you think it doesn't work?

While that's probably correct that without NASA support SpaceX may not survive 10 years ago, on the way to becoming the innovator it is today. Financially speaking however NASA has spent less to buy launch capability from SpaceX than it would have to otherwise.

From the R&D perspective NASA doesn't really have any say in how Starship/Superheavy are developed, which is the cutting edge of space launch. Nor does it dictate the timeline or milestones of the program. Not the same compared to the EU's initiative.

In fact, SpaceX's success shows a different path: let the private sector innovate, provide support in terms of know-how, credibility and potential contracts.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#94

Post by WanderPanda »

agumonkey wrote: post #65
baxtr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name examples of EU initiatives on that level that delivered the desired results? EDIT: I am asking because I seriously want to know. I haven’t made up my mind yet what to think about the whole thing. I am not familiar with successful EU initiatives. I’m open in believing this can work if there were successful examples in the past.

I thought Airbus was one.

You mean that resource wasting shop, that is sending huge airplane parts all across Europe for political reasons? I don’t even want to start about the subsidies considered illegal by the wto...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#95

Post by smhg »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #59
simias wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a tiresome and self-defeating mindset. If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Of course politics and lobbying will play a role when we're talking about hundreds of billions of euros, but that doesn't mean that it can't end up being a net positive for the union. Ask for transparency and keep tabs, don't assume that it's already lost.

> If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Wrong. Its not about "doing something", its about doing the right thing. And they don't.

Even if done inefficient (to which standard?) the current state of doing things can be a net positive.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#96

Post by TeMPOraL »

cinquemb wrote: post #88
TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even earlier, in chemical and advanced manufacturing space - just how many of the well-known US companies started as small shops that got their hands on government grants during WWII?

> … government grants during WWII Seems like we're missing some "proper" motivation/focus/constraints now like war on this scale can provide… not just the EU, but this kind of diktat-innovation is increasingly more present everywhere… Probably goes hand in hand with the ever present bailout olympics for those deemed TBTF…

I used to believe the "proper motivation" - like winning the war - mattered. Then I read "War Is a Racket", a 1935 short book by US general Smedley Darlington Butler, which in many places argues that even during an active war, companies will happily steal and squander the war funding. So now I'm not sure how much you can expect from such motivation.

Probably it's best to assume that some amount of graft will always happen, just dump the money, and hope something good comes out of it...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#97

Post by snvzz »

elric wrote: post #68
rapsey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horizon2020 for instance

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

That does describe my own experience with 2x FP7 projects well.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#99

Post by m4rtink »

_ph_ wrote: post #85

Good news. Yes, as with all government money, there is some pork barreling involved, but there is a long history of such government initiatives laying the starting seed for high tech industry development. It means money is invested in Europe tied to a certain purpose. Giving talented engineers a job perspective and companies a field in which they can invest into.

Exactly, I suppose the Taiwan government also helped a lot to TSMC to get started & get where it is now.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#100

Post by yvdriess »

nikivi wrote: post #3

Are there any companies in EU who are developing chips now? I only know ASML but that only makes the wafers. I ask as I can't imagine the government doing this. So there must be some company behind this deal.

Most precompetitive research in the semi industry also happens at Imec in Belgium.

The ASML litho machines are a single step in even just the wafer production process, there are several companies involved in making and processing masks, doing the etching, cleaning solutions, etc. As many industries, it's a highly globalized supply chain, with many companies distributed around the world specializing and leading different aspects. And yes, several of them are in the EU.

As to why the governments would do this, well it's geopolitics. The EU has some big players in the industry, but other parts of the supply chain are elsewhere. When all big geopolitical powers are interdependent, then no player will move to block another off at risk of hurting themselves. Now, both China and the US are shoveling billions into developing a higher independence (even before the trade war). Likely, the EU feels it is now forced to follow suit, or risk having e.g. the access to high-volume fabs to be a bargaining chip in future trade negotiations.

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