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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#61

Post by paulryanrogers »

wongarsu wrote: post #49
zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

The US recently spent their way into a cutting edge private space launch provider industry, and that seems like a roaring success. What makes you think it doesn't work?

How much of that was really private? My guess is the NASA launch facilities, former employees, and potential for future contracts were a big part of the picture.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#62

Post by rapsey »

vincnetas wrote: post #33
rapsey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mindset is born out of seeing how the game is played and where the money goes from past initiatives. Why would this one be in any way different? To quote a very rich and slimey asshole I’ve interacted with who’s income is largely from such initiatives. It’s just money for papers.

Ask for transparency and report slimey assholes. If you want the change, be the change.

Yeah sure lemme go against a guy with half the government in his pocket. Life is not a movie.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#63

Post by LudwigNagasena »

simias wrote: post #14
rapsey wrote: post #5

Just a giveaway to the best politically connected companies. Like all such EU initiatives.

Such a tiresome and self-defeating mindset. If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Of course politics and lobbying will play a role when we're talking about hundreds of billions of euros, but that doesn't mean that it can't end up being a net positive for the union. Ask for transparency and keep tabs, don't assume that it's already lost.

> If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption.

Well, surely there are other ways to try to improve things besides doing nothing and bureaucratic grant schemes.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#64

Post by imtringued »

I'd like to see more government investment into domestic industries, however I believe that the semiconductor manufacturing market is already heavily saturated. R&D is welcome but beyond ensuring independence from foreign manufacturing there are not that many benefits that you would expect from this example of government stimulus. This industry primarily hires high skilled workers but unless they also directly fund the education of those high skilled workers it's not going to result in less underemployment.

I mean come on, the existing semiconductor industry in the EU has found it's niche. It's already well developed. If there really was a shortage of domestic semiconductor products then these companies would have been able to make a killing with their local fabs because corona related shipping restrictions resulted in a lack of supply from foreign nations. They wouldn't need the government stimulus and stand on their own.

It would make more sense to use this government stimulus on reducing CO2 emissions because most nations do not have economic incentives for reducing CO2 emissions. With our current economic models environmentalism amounts to charity and charity is one thing the government is very good at. The reason why I bring up CO2 reductions is because they are inherently domestic. You cannot put CO2 or electricity on a container ship and move the problem to a different country. A lot of the work also involves simple manual labor which helps with the underemployment problem for low skilled workers.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#65

Post by agumonkey »

baxtr wrote: post #30
simias wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a tiresome and self-defeating mindset. If the EU does nothing it's useless, if it does something it's just corruption. Of course politics and lobbying will play a role when we're talking about hundreds of billions of euros, but that doesn't mean that it can't end up being a net positive for the union. Ask for transparency and keep tabs, don't assume that it's already lost.

Can you name examples of EU initiatives on that level that delivered the desired results? EDIT: I am asking because I seriously want to know. I haven’t made up my mind yet what to think about the whole thing. I am not familiar with successful EU initiatives. I’m open in believing this can work if there were successful examples in the past.

I thought Airbus was one.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#66

Post by _ph_ »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #57
wongarsu wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US recently spent their way into a cutting edge private space launch provider industry, and that seems like a roaring success. What makes you think it doesn't work?

Not true. SpaceX was almost completely privately invested and private risk. Once they had shown that they were serious, NASA awarded them contracts, because it was a great deal for NASA, compared to what they would pay otherwise. Its sad to see these kind of attempts to trash talk the SpaceX achievements.

This isn't trash talking the SpaceX achievements but stating the fact that government money played a huge role in developing a space industry which was the base for SpaceX becoming reality.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#67

Post by MichaelApproved »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #57
wongarsu wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US recently spent their way into a cutting edge private space launch provider industry, and that seems like a roaring success. What makes you think it doesn't work?

Not true. SpaceX was almost completely privately invested and private risk. Once they had shown that they were serious, NASA awarded them contracts, because it was a great deal for NASA, compared to what they would pay otherwise. Its sad to see these kind of attempts to trash talk the SpaceX achievements.

It’s so strange to read a comment like this one. They have the facts but completely miss how the facts connect with each other.

Yes, Space X is a private company but they wouldn’t exist without the innovations that came out of NASA, a publicly funded organization.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#68

Post by elric »

rapsey wrote: post #32
varjag wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other ones you mean?

Horizon2020 for instance

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read.

Don't get me wrong, it was all developed with good intentions, but those have been known to pave the road to hell. From a personal point of view, I learnt a lot from the experience. But there are probably more efficient ways for software engineers to learn than by doing FP7 projects.

I was just a cog in the machine, perhaps someone further down the pipe got some benefit out of what we were doing. But given how the projects were managed, I doubt it.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#69

Post by iagovar »

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

The EU has the tech, but that's not enough. I won't say the whole budget will be wasted away, but I hold no hope of something useful coming out of it.

The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players. And they are moderately confortable in their niches. This is a very high risk endeavour, even with EU money.

And as far as I know, none of them manufacture for other end-user players, so even if there was a new fabless company with a cool project, it's likely that wouldn't be made in the EU bu by Samsumg or TSMC.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#70

Post by eric_khun »

The world starts realising all the processors that everyone depends on is mainly from Taiwan. I just wrote an article[1] about the importance of processors and talking about key players such that help the semis industry such ASML, and why it's not that simple to get into the game. . It's not as easy as pouring money into some companies. Sourcing trusted partners + years (decades?) of R&D might be needed to achieve what TSMC did in Taiwan

[1] https://erickhun.com/posts/world-innovation-taiwan-semicondu...

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