Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it • Hacker News Board

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#361

Post by bamboleo » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #318

bamboleo wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that apparently the virus was outside China in early December already, is it possible that Wuhan was simply the first fast-spreading location rather than the place where the transmission happened? If the virus was in Milan’s sewers in December, it feels that it might as swell have started spreading there first. Likewise, Italy contained the virus from May to September, then it exploded again. Nothing particular…

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is no direct air flight from Italy to Wuhan without going through Amsterdam Schipol or Beijing. There are no Shipping ports in inland Wuhan. Do you truly believe it is a realistic scenario that a virus this infectious could traverse from northern Italy to Wuhan, Hubei, without creating multiple infection hotspots along the way? If I am to put on my tinfoil ha…

Codogno, the original Italian hotspot, has no airport. How do you explain that? The virus can travel without direct flights and, because you’re not infectious for a few days, you can meet plenty of people in the meanwhile without infecting them.

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#362

Post by Woodi » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #329

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is no direct air flight from Italy to Wuhan without going through Amsterdam Schipol or Beijing. There are no Shipping ports in inland Wuhan. Do you truly believe it is a realistic scenario that a virus this infectious could traverse from northern Italy to Wuhan, Hubei, without creating multiple infection hotspots along the way? If I am to put on my tinfoil ha…

He's not making an extraordinary claim, just a sensible possible conclusion based on established facts. In fact this is the most likely scenario (Wuhan was the first known outbreak but the virus does not originate from there) Could we also stop dropping "CCP propaganda" everytime someone writes something others disagree with?

> Could we also stop dropping "CCP propaganda" everytime someone writes something others disagree with?

No, we can't drop "CCP propaganda" fact. Man, they put DOCTORS doing their job to prisons ! Actually we shoud be more concerned about such idiocy ! Where is logic in that ? Looks more like mentality from few hundreds years ago reborn in autocratic country. Communists usually give orders for achievements :>

But yes, as you pointed, not everything is "CCP propaganda" and such meme is often trown in unresponsible way.

And yes, pointing earlier cases in Europe is good to know too. But in Europe there was cases (x-rays photos, can't find info about dead cases) in September / November but in China there was EPIDEMY in early November. Still, all that is not a proof about origin of patient zero. And Wuhan could be it.

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#363

Post by IIAOPSW » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #353

IIAOPSW wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its simple. Humans are addicted to blame thinking. People instinctively expect a just world, where bad things are a consequence of some form of sin from bad people and good things are a consequence of some virtue from good people and all problems are some sinners fault. A large fraction of people can't comprehend a world where bad things happen to them and nothing/no one is to blame. In the absence of reason they inv…

They covered it up just like the USSR covered up the Chernobyl nuclear accident, so China is at the very least liable for doing that, which led to a delayed response to the outbreak. Responsible parties were doctor Zhang Yongzhen who published the virus sequence, enabling research on vaccines, Li Wenliang and his colleagues who shared the news about the outbreak and were punished for doing so.

There's a world of difference between "China has some liability for delaying the response" and "China intentionally engineered this in a lab". The reasonable argument of the former is drowned out by emotional blame-thinkers who have adapted the latter.

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#364

Post by iso1210 » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:15 PM UTC

freddie_mercury wrote: post #191

iso1210 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SARS was proven to come from wetmarkets back in 2003. They were banned by China, then unbanned later.

China has never banned wet markets. A wet market is just a place that sells fresh meat or vegetables. The butcher who supplies your favorite restaurant is a wet market. The fruit & veg stand where you buy organic heirloom tomatoes is a wet market. Every farmer's market is a wet market. "Wet market" just distinguishes from "dry market" where durable goods like electronics are sold. China never banned wet markets, whic…

They banned wet markets from holding wildlife

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#365

Post by rawgabbit » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

dependsontheq wrote: post #330

rawgabbit wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese propaganda claims 5000 years of unbroken history. One Han people. One language etc. They conveniently ignore when China was ruled by ethnic Khitan-Jurchen-Manchus. The Chinese literary classic On the Water Margin aka All Men Are Brothers is about local heroes of the Song rising up against a corrupt government which was completely ineffective against the Liao.

For all foreigners China has a long and impressive history, for whom is this 5K claim relevant?

Read up on the now closed Confucian Institutes that were operating in the USA and Europe. [1]

  "The online and print cultural materials of the Confucius Institute present a vision of

China with a national history of thousands of years but while these materials note that other ethnicities might rule China the history presented is undoubtedly Han. This can be seen in the association of historical figures like the Yellow Emperor and Liu Bang with the Han identity, while the ethnic identity of non-Han historical figures is presented ambiguously, the ethnic identity of Han historical figures is always clear. Nearly every single historical figure mentioned in the cultural materials was Han Chinese and that fact was prominent in the biography. It is often either included at the beginning of the article next to place of birth, or at the end of the article under a specific section of nationality" [2]

[1] https://www.dw.com/en/why-is-the-us-targeting-chinas-confuci... [2] http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/27901/1/The_Confucius_Institut...

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#366

Post by rawgabbit » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #317

rawgabbit wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese propaganda claims 5000 years of unbroken history. One Han people. One language etc. They conveniently ignore when China was ruled by ethnic Khitan-Jurchen-Manchus. The Chinese literary classic On the Water Margin aka All Men Are Brothers is about local heroes of the Song rising up against a corrupt government which was completely ineffective against the Liao.

This is BS. They perfectly acknowledge that some imperial dynasties were not Han and have no problem with it. These 'foreign' dynasties adopted Han culture. Certainly, Chinese culture did not turn Mongol when the Emperor was an ethnic Mongol. Please don't spread nonsense.

One scholar disagrees with you. "Reenvisioning the Qing: The Significance of the Qing Period in Chinese History" by Evelyn S. Rawski. https://www.history.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/Evelyn-Rawsk...

  "'Sinicization' - the thesis that all of the non-Han peoples who have entered the Chinese realm have eventually been assimilated into the Chinese culture--is a twentieth-century Han nationalist interpretation of China's past."

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#367

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #366

mytailorisrich wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is BS. They perfectly acknowledge that some imperial dynasties were not Han and have no problem with it. These 'foreign' dynasties adopted Han culture. Certainly, Chinese culture did not turn Mongol when the Emperor was an ethnic Mongol. Please don't spread nonsense.

One scholar disagrees with you. "Reenvisioning the Qing: The Significance of the Qing Period in Chinese History" by Evelyn S. Rawski. https://www.history.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/Evelyn-Rawsk... "'Sinicization' - the thesis that all of the non-Han peoples who have entered the Chinese realm have eventually been assimilated into the Chinese culture--is a twentieth-century Han nationalist interpretation of China's pa…

Considering that what you've quoted is making a different point, I am not sure that "one" scholar disagrees with me...

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#368

Post by rawgabbit » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #367

rawgabbit wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One scholar disagrees with you. "Reenvisioning the Qing: The Significance of the Qing Period in Chinese History" by Evelyn S. Rawski. https://www.history.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/Evelyn-Rawsk... "'Sinicization' - the thesis that all of the non-Han peoples who have entered the Chinese realm have eventually been assimilated into the Chinese culture--is a twentieth-century Han nationalist interpretation of China's pa…

Considering that what you've quoted is making a different point, I am not sure that "one" scholar disagrees with me...

You said the foreign conquerors adopted Han culture.

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#369

Post by dependsontheq » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #365

dependsontheq wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all foreigners China has a long and impressive history, for whom is this 5K claim relevant?

Read up on the now closed Confucian Institutes that were operating in the USA and Europe. [1] "The online and print cultural materials of the Confucius Institute present a vision of China with a national history of thousands of years but while these materials note that other ethnicities might rule China the history presented is undoubtedly Han. This can be seen in the association of historical figures like the Yellow…

So it is a racist thing? Otherwise I still don’t get the “advantage” or who gains by this spreading it. The CP as heir to the history? Is it about legitimacy?

Re: Israeli startup claims Covid-19 likely originated in a lab, willing to bet on it

#370

Post by rawgabbit » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

dependsontheq wrote: post #369

rawgabbit wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read up on the now closed Confucian Institutes that were operating in the USA and Europe. [1] "The online and print cultural materials of the Confucius Institute present a vision of China with a national history of thousands of years but while these materials note that other ethnicities might rule China the history presented is undoubtedly Han. This can be seen in the association of historical figures like the Yellow…

So it is a racist thing? Otherwise I still don’t get the “advantage” or who gains by this spreading it. The CP as heir to the history? Is it about legitimacy?

The CCP gains an advantage. It is a long complicated political story and it touches upon the sore points that the CCP is extremely sensitive to: Tibet, Taiwan etc. I am not a China hater but I know what it is doing.

In the other link I posted from professor Evelyn Rawski of U of Pittsburg, she explained that the last Chinese dynasty was the Qing who were ethnically Manchu. The Qing saw themselves as ruling five peoples, of which China was the most important. The Qing ruled China, Manchuria, Mongolia, Uighurs, and Tibet. When the Qing collapsed, Chinese nationalists, although they detested the Qing who were foreign conquerors, wanted to lay claim to all the territory the Qing ruled. I would do the same thing. But they used this strange construction of "Han Nationalism" and claimed that all the territory was really Han because the Qing was really Han. This is where the 5000 years of unbroken history propaganda comes from. Professor Rawski explains if you read the official Qing records which is in written in Manchu, the Qing did not "sinicize" or adopt Han culture. The Chinese liked to think they did but that is simply not true.

An interesting side note is that this bizarre cultural legitimacy argument cuts both ways. A few years ago, a Korean professor made the argument if you follow this line of thinking... you can argue that China really belongs to Korea. The founder of the Liao dynasty which once ruled Northern China was ethnically Khitan or "Qi Dan" in mandarin. The Khitan lands bordered Korea. There is some obscure record that conflates or can be construed that Yelu Abaoji is Korean... therefore China is really Korean. Bizarre. I don't remember the Korean professor's name but it caused a ruckus at the time.