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HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

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Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#301

Post by Fifer82 »

dandare wrote: post #261

The Flash "editor" software was a work of a genius. The combination of vector graphics editor, symbol library, layers, animation tools and code was super powerful yet super approachable at the same time. I have learned AS2 just by toying with the examples. Over time I learned AS3, then HTML and TypeScript, in this order. One more shout out to the vector graphics editor - the way you did boolean operations with shapes…

I followed the same path, how amazing was TypeScript Beta when it looked like you had to go back to ES3/5 after AS3? I almost became a gardener.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#302

Post by mulmen »

j45 wrote: post #283
mulmen wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The turn if the century really was a different time. > boomer tech Since we are talking about events ~25 years ago isn’t all of this “boomer tech” because the boomers were at the peak of their careers at the time? Aren’t they the ones that created, like, everything ? Seems like a strangely modern phrase to use to describe what is now ancient history. Also I’m not that old but I already see the ageism in tech. I see i…

Internet generations seem to be much quicker, with big shifts every 3 to 5 years. Mary Meeker's yearly summary often illustrates aspects of this.

Not sure I follow.

Does “boomer” not mean “person born between 1946 and 1964”?

Does it just mean ”old” now?

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#303

Post by EamonnMR »

shawnz wrote: post #168
tapirl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the components that are needed to be that runtime and then some. A tool should give us what Flash did but with the HTML runtime. The author doesn't argue a tool like Flash should exist. He just states the fact that HTML has still not caught up to fill the blank caused by…

The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. An authoring software just like Flash could exist for the HTML runtime -- it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem. Thus it's not HTML which has to "catch up", but vendors of authoring software.

We'll there we have it: we lived in a world with good tooling for creative works but a bad runtime, and we replaced the runtime without replacing the authoring tools. I think that's a shame.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#304

Post by jonplackett »

rogual wrote: post #256
jonplackett wrote: post #229

The difference in authoring tool is the big one here. Flash let artists and even kids (like myself aged 12) start making really fun interactive websites that could be hosted very very simply. But I lay the blame for that with Adobe. Why didn’t they just adapt the Flash application to output html and JavaScript? If you can compile modern JS to old with babbel I don’t see why they couldn’t have an interpreter to turn a…

They did, sort of. Flash (now rebranded Adobe Animate) can export to HTML5, it just isn't very good. As I recall, it tries to naively export your Flash graphics as HTML5 Canvas drawing commands, but they come out all glitchy because Flash's renderer just uses a fundamentally different model (planar maps vs. stacked rendering). This probably is fixable, but I sincerely wonder whether Adobe still has the engineering sk…

Yeah Flash animate is really not targeted at proper web development. It’s more of a tiny bonus to export to html and is generally terrible.

It needs to be feature parity including the ‘runs anywhere’ of an swf. I don’t even think it’s too late if they could really deliver this.

Just look at the community surrounding Instagram filter development because they made really easy-to-use software (Spark AR studio) that kids and artists can use.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#305

Post by fmxexpress »

AshleysBrain wrote: post #285
olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

Honest question: why does it matter if it's one file or not? For example if you're deploying to a web server, it doesn't seem a big deal if you're uploading one file or several... so why the issue?

I ran one of the large flash game portals. We had 100,000 Flash games. It matters because of distribution. One distribution mechanism was through MochiMedia and MochiAds. You'd upload an SWF to MochiMedia's site and they would aggregate it out to thousands of other sites. Without a playable package format you would have had millions and millions of files. Game creators liked the "copy protection" that the SWF package provided and game sites liked the "sandboxed" game files. If a browser could host a ZIP file and load all the assets out of it as if it was a sandboxed local directory that would be the equivalent.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#306

Post by EamonnMR »

chii wrote: post #210
danShumway wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no free equivalent available targeting HTML/JS I commented to the same effect elsewhere, but I would take this a step farther. There is no alternative, free or paid, Open Source or proprietary, targeting any platform (even just iOS or Windows) that is as good as Flash was at rapid prototyping and accessible game creation. To me, the focus on the web is really frustrating. Unity is not as good as Flash was…

the flash/macromedia creative suite is so good, and even tho it wasn't free, it was popular (with plenty of pirated copies obviously). If your thesis is true that the web/html api could've been just as good as flash had there just been a suite of tools to create the content, then why doesn't one already exist? I think the true underlying issue is that the expectations of the users have grown - "simple" animations tha…

Probably the same reason that Adobe let flash die on the vine-making a robust flash like authoring tool and targeting broke teenagers as your market isn't profitable.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#307

Post by bavell »

pjmlp wrote: post #247
ksec wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I was downvoted to oblivion for stating that. Not a popular view on HN for some strange reason. ( Along with no one use SSB on Desktop as with the Firefox thread. )

As you can see by my comment history, I stand by my point of view and never care for votes, regardless in what direction they go.

Definitely the right approach, don't censor yourself over some imaginary internet points.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#308

Post by EamonnMR »

gorgoiler wrote: post #194

YouTube (specifically hobbyist YouTube) replaced Flash. As a nascent carpenter, baker, cosmologist and cycle repair guy I couldn’t be happier with the amount of freely available creative output people are sharing. Videos are this generation’s single-file-upload one-click-share platform. I sure hope — for cultures sake — this generation also has an indie animation scene.

I find video of someone else playing an existing game to be a poor replacement for someone going and making a new game.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#309

Post by boomboomsubban »

mulmen wrote: post #262
bitwize wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not sarcasm at all. I tried Flash on a variety of different operating systems and browsers at the time -- and IE5 on Mac OS 9 was the only one that consistently delivered good results. It seems weird, but when you consider the context at the time, it makes sense. Back in the late 90s -- when Flash was on the rise and being rapidly developed -- IE5 was the browser to have on Mac just as it was on Windows. The reas…

The turn if the century really was a different time. > boomer tech Since we are talking about events ~25 years ago isn’t all of this “boomer tech” because the boomers were at the peak of their careers at the time? Aren’t they the ones that created, like, everything ? Seems like a strangely modern phrase to use to describe what is now ancient history. Also I’m not that old but I already see the ageism in tech. I see i…

They are using "boomer" similarly to how the word is used in "baby boomer," as in a sudden growth. Netscape was the hot new browser. Probably one of those words on its way out, but they aren't being ageist.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#310

Post by indymike »

Flash and HTML5 never were the same thing. Flash always seemed to be an easier and more approachable way to do applets than Java. As it aged, it also became a kind of universal functionality plug-in that let people build experiences that you just couldn't do with HTML and JavaScript at the time. The spiritual successor to Flash (and Java applets) is probably more WebAssembly than HTML5 - although many parts of HTML5 do things that a Flash piece would have been used for 15-20 years ago.
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