HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash • Hacker News Board

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#121

Post by tapirl » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:15 AM UTC

jchw wrote: post #75

This is true but it is a common misunderstanding imo. Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the components that are needed to be that runtime and then some. A tool should give us what Flash did but with the HTML runtime. So why doesn’t that tool exist? Well... as far as I know it does. I’m pretty sure this is…

> Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the components that are needed to be that runtime and then some. A tool should give us what Flash did but with the HTML runtime.

The author doesn't argue a tool like Flash should exist. He just states the fact that HTML has still not caught up to fill the blank caused by Flash exiting yet, which is true IMO.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#122

Post by nn3 » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #120

I've come across a lot of similar sentiment from ex-Flash devs, who romanticise its heyday as a period of fertile creativity (true) and say that HTML5/JS/CSS/SVG is an inadequate replacement (false). In truth, the fundamental capabilities of the modern web platform matches and typically exceeds anything that was offered by Flash. What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to…

This raises the question - what paid HTML tools are available today which are as easy to use and have similar capabilities as the old Adobe tools?

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#123

Post by larsiusprime » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:22 AM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #120

I've come across a lot of similar sentiment from ex-Flash devs, who romanticise its heyday as a period of fertile creativity (true) and say that HTML5/JS/CSS/SVG is an inadequate replacement (false). In truth, the fundamental capabilities of the modern web platform matches and typically exceeds anything that was offered by Flash. What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to…

> What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to non-technical users.

Yes, that's what we've been saying. And it was HTML5 boosters who said that when Flash died nothing of value would be lost, I'm pointing out their comparing a platform & authoring tools with a narrow tech stack.

And the Flash Authorship tools were absolutely NOT free. You had to pay hundreds of dollars for the Flash IDE (not that it stopped people from pirating it).

FlashDevelop was free, but that was not an Adobe product.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#124

Post by larsiusprime » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #111

larsiusprime wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no, you couldn't just email someone an SWF. That never worked. C'mon I never emailed people SWF's, seriously. We uploaded them to flash portals and sent links to our friends. The single-file aspect was important because it made it easy to share (for both you and the flash portal). Also crucially it made it easy for competing flash portals to "steal" your game and spread it even further. > as someone who uses Linux…

> but I don't think the Linux audience in 1999-2008 was exactly who most of us were targeting Well, but... yeah. I know people weren't targeting Linux in the early 2000's, that was the problem. That's what I'm saying. One of the biggest advantages of dumping Flash was that it got replaced with a runtime that worked on every OS even if people weren't deliberately targeting it. I'm saying that's a big enough advantage…

I understand your point better now. I think we were talking past each other.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#125

Post by larsiusprime » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:24 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #117

larsiusprime wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mom was on windows, using an old version of IE. Never had any problems. Flash player compat wasn't perfect but it was more than enough to create vibrant scenes like Kongregate, Newgrounds, and ArmorGames. Anecdotal sure, but it was good enough for the scene to exist. The main thing about the single-file thing is that it afforded the flash portal ecosystem. It was really easy to share your work as a creator without…

> Yeah but the problem is creating that canvas-based animation is insane, so there aren't any canvas-based animations, compared to the output of flash cartoons. I think we might be arguing past each other. I fully, 100% agree with this point. I just don't think it has anything to do with the web. When people brought up replacing the Flash runtime with the web, there were two things being claimed: A) that the platform…

Yeah we've arrived at the same page here. I think we actually agree about most everything.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#126

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #120

I've come across a lot of similar sentiment from ex-Flash devs, who romanticise its heyday as a period of fertile creativity (true) and say that HTML5/JS/CSS/SVG is an inadequate replacement (false). In truth, the fundamental capabilities of the modern web platform matches and typically exceeds anything that was offered by Flash. What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to…

[deleted]

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#127

Post by wejick » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

I missed the early 2000 when flash based websites was so exciting. I found some crazy design with psychedelic color, futuristic robotic head, many part moving around with sound effects and music. On the eyes of teenager that's really cool.

Now I see the scene is different, may be someone can tell me where to find that kind of crazy, prototypey, futuristic website design?

Honestly it's kinda similar with the scene of winamp skin.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#128

Post by numpad0 » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

So this is one of industries/ecosystem/environment that Apple destructed/revolutionized/liberated, but unlike others, without an intent to capture.

Interesting that when you destroy something with force but not rebuild, it stays destroyed.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#129

Post by danShumway » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:32 AM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #120

I've come across a lot of similar sentiment from ex-Flash devs, who romanticise its heyday as a period of fertile creativity (true) and say that HTML5/JS/CSS/SVG is an inadequate replacement (false). In truth, the fundamental capabilities of the modern web platform matches and typically exceeds anything that was offered by Flash. What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to…

> There is no free equivalent available targeting HTML/JS

I commented to the same effect elsewhere, but I would take this a step farther. There is no alternative, free or paid, Open Source or proprietary, targeting any platform (even just iOS or Windows) that is as good as Flash was at rapid prototyping and accessible game creation.

To me, the focus on the web is really frustrating. Unity is not as good as Flash was for rapid prototyping. Gamemaker is not as good as Flash was for animation. It's not the platform's problem that literally no one has found a way to merge animation, artwork, and programming in the same way as Flash did.

It's not that there's something awful about the web and that it ruined the ability to make that tool. Literally no one for any platform for any motivation has ever replicated Flash even just as a content creation tool.

So why are we talking about the web at this point? WebGL, Canvas, and WASM are powerful enough to replace Flash. That is not the issue anymore. I think when people touted the web as a replacement for Flash, there was an expectation that some company or Open Source initiative somewhere was going to make effective tools and that never happened. And instead of talking about the fact that the entire games industry has been unable to replicate Flash, we're attacking the Open web instead.

I agree that Flash was prematurely killed online, I agree that HTML advocates were too dismissive about the problems. But we are far past that point. The web kept its end of the bargain, the APIs exist, but nobody else built the necessary tools. We should be talking game engines right now, not the web.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#130

Post by dleslie » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 4:33 AM UTC

chrisweekly wrote: post #82

devwastaken wrote: post #27

The proof is in the pudding. Nobody makes webgl+javascript 2d animations hostable anywhere. There's little to no websites that will host arbitrary content like they could with swfs. Luckily browsers don't matter, and newgrounds has their own flash player you can launch content with.

> Nobody makes webgl+javascript 2d animations hostable anywhere.... no websites that will host arbitrary content.... browsers don't matter.... Huh? Sorry, I can't make head or tail of your comment. Is it intended as sarcasm?

There is no "Newgrounds as it was at Flash's peak" for HTML5.