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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#801

Post by [deleted] »

echelon wrote: post #792
ogre_codes wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think you can damn everyone who buys Apple for their participation in abuses, even as you enjoy products which are likely far deeper into this bullshit. All you've done is point out your own biases and willingness to dive deep into hypocrisy. There is a big problem with forced labor. Apple is one of the few companies who is remotely transparent about their supply chain. As much manufacturing as Apple does…

Still with the deflection. Apple is lobbying to protect their access to slave labor. (Reference in my previous post.) How is that in any way ignorable? Why bring up anything else? Why defend them when they're saying one thing and doing another? Apple fans never condemn their company. They always hurdle accusations at everyone and anything else they can to protect their fruit god. Just like you're doing now. Say it: "…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#802

Post by coldtea »

Alupis wrote: post #783
coldtea wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The country that was founded on the principal of religious freedom, by people that fled religious persecution, and felt so strongly as to list religious freedom as item number one in their list of human rights, does not need to be "much better" to call out religious slave labor camps. "The country that founded on the principal of religious freedom" is nationalistic trite, like "land of the free" (which ended slaver…

So effectively you are arguing that since the US did bad things in the past, China should be allowed to imprison millions based on their religion alone? How does this add up?

No, effectively I'm arguing that the US should check its own hypocrisy before pointing fingers, especially if it does it selectively (doesn't matter when allies / we do it), hypocritically, and as part of a power play/trade war. (Also, it wasn't "in the past", the US does bad things continuously. W. Bush, Obama -more of the same-, and Trump presidencies weren't in some distant past...)

How about both China and the US stop fucking over with millions, and people don't "patriotically" only point fingers to the other, and give their home team a pass (with much less, and much tamer, criticism, whereas it should be even more vigorous, it being their own domain?).

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#803

Post by ogre_codes »

echelon wrote: post #792
ogre_codes wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think you can damn everyone who buys Apple for their participation in abuses, even as you enjoy products which are likely far deeper into this bullshit. All you've done is point out your own biases and willingness to dive deep into hypocrisy. There is a big problem with forced labor. Apple is one of the few companies who is remotely transparent about their supply chain. As much manufacturing as Apple does…

Still with the deflection. Apple is lobbying to protect their access to slave labor. (Reference in my previous post.) How is that in any way ignorable? Why bring up anything else? Why defend them when they're saying one thing and doing another? Apple fans never condemn their company. They always hurdle accusations at everyone and anything else they can to protect their fruit god. Just like you're doing now. Say it: "…

You are still hypocracizing here in the dark?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#804

Post by darig »

Lord_Baltimore wrote: post #709
logicchains wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose the Chinese response would be "America has forced hundreds of thousand of black people into prison slave labor just because they're black".

They could also say many other things that aren't true if they wanted to.

Tell me more about the fair treatment of blacks with regards to the american justice system, Lord Baltimore.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#805

Post by onethought »

dillondoyle wrote: post #795
onethought wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, but it's because people are generally not willing to enter a proper debate on the issues in China. Take the Uigher issue, it is ALWAYS reported with a lack of context. No mention of the bombings, the mass killing events, the huge domestic terrorism issue it has caused China for the last 20 years. Instead we just get reports of China "randomly" persecuting these people for seemingly no reason. When you…

There are plenty of terrorist attacks in the US too, from the wiki below China does have a few years with big numbers but the US page doesn't include a bunch of mass shootings by far right white MAGA and single white men wackos. And despite those numbers the US isn't rounding up millions of our own citizens into 're-education camps.' I'm sure the 'whatabout' is the stupid wars in the middle east which are undoubtedly…

I agree that is the debate to be had.

So what are they suppose to do though, if they have a state of their country trying to seperate and harming civilians to do it?

Xi thinks forced re-education and subjugation is the answer. Historically, other countries have taken that approach as well.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#806

Post by derangedHorse »

steve_taylor wrote: post #716
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to discount your point, but wouldn't a fourth option be to buy from the 30% of suppliers not in the DRC?

Fifth option would be to develop alternative tech that doesn’t use cobalt.

I think the OP was using the false dilemma fallacy to strengthen his argument: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#807

Post by esarbe »

ksk wrote: post #784
esarbe wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you won't see me grandstanding for the U.S. The U.S. has plenty of issues. But we were talking about China, not the U.S. By the way, why the U.S.? Why not Lichtenstein or Denmark?

Well, those countries are not global powers, yet. Quite a bit of the China bashing comes from the US, and that's why I brought it up. If we judge the US and a lot of the other so called world leaders by the same standard as we judge China, things don't look so rosy anymore.

I'm quite willing to bash the U.S. too, believe me. The massive corruption in their political system, the systemic militarization of their police, the wasteful social inequality are just the tip of the iceberg of internal issues. Problematic is also their pursuit of dominance by military force, their financing and arming of groups opposing legitimate democratic governments. And that's just the beginning of my issues with the U.S.

In general I'm very skeptical that prison operators should be able to "rent out" their prisoners and that companies should be able to make profit of prisoner's work. The potential for abuse is just too high. (Maybe in a country like Finland that has some reasonable ideas about reintegration of criminals, but even there I see the dangers of corruption.)

The global production chains have put workers in jeopardy of exploitation. As long as there are no legal means to force companies to take responsibility, they will not take responsibility. It doesn't matter if a company is from the U.S. from Denmark or Finland; if there's no accountability, the profit motive will overrule any ethical concerns. Because that's what these companies were created for in the first place; to turn a profit.

Here we have just one more 'externality' that companies 'socialize' in their quest to squeeze out ever more profit. In this case it's not clean water or clean air, it's the mental and physical health of fellow humans that for one reason or another have deemed disposable.

That countries and the governments - whose job it is to server all their citizens - are such willing participants in these atrocities small and large is just the bitter icing on this putrid cake.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#808

Post by esarbe »

onethought wrote: post #790
esarbe wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fun! Apple is a U.S. Company Lots of U.S. companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. Domestic prison labour is responsible for mental health problems. Mental health problems are treated by psychiatrists. How are psychiatrists not part of this discussion???

Sure if you want to derail it. But the Actual post is about an American company taking advantage of essentially Chinese prison labour. You think drawing a parallel to American companies taking advantage of American prison labour is unrelated to this discussion preferring to focus on the race of the 'prison labour' rather than the nature of the labour. What ever helps you sleep at night ;)

It was actually my conception that you were trying to derail the conversation. I'm terribly sorry if that wasn't the case.

See my response to ksk below with regards to the topic of American prison labor. In short; it's inexcusable.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#809

Post by Alupis »

coldtea wrote: post #802
Alupis wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So effectively you are arguing that since the US did bad things in the past, China should be allowed to imprison millions based on their religion alone? How does this add up?

No, effectively I'm arguing that the US should check its own hypocrisy before pointing fingers, especially if it does it selectively (doesn't matter when allies / we do it), hypocritically, and as part of a power play/trade war. (Also, it wasn't "in the past", the US does bad things continuously. W. Bush, Obama -more of the same-, and Trump presidencies weren't in some distant past...) How about both China and the US…

Nobody is giving the US a "pass". All of our problems are out in the open for everyone to see and comment on, US Citizens or foreigners alike! That's part of what makes the US so unique.

Regardless, no issue any country has domestically is going to excuse Religious Slave Labor Camps in China. That's wrong no matter where you live or who you are. People like to throw Hitler around too easily... but this is exactly what the Nazis did... imprison and exterminate entire populations of "undesirables" based solely on religion.

Arguing the US needs to shut it's mouth because it has some domestic issues doesn't fly...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#810

Post by ksk »

esarbe wrote: post #807
ksk wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, those countries are not global powers, yet. Quite a bit of the China bashing comes from the US, and that's why I brought it up. If we judge the US and a lot of the other so called world leaders by the same standard as we judge China, things don't look so rosy anymore.

I'm quite willing to bash the U.S. too, believe me. The massive corruption in their political system, the systemic militarization of their police, the wasteful social inequality are just the tip of the iceberg of internal issues. Problematic is also their pursuit of dominance by military force, their financing and arming of groups opposing legitimate democratic governments. And that's just the beginning of my issues…

Yup, we're in violent agreement :)
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