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HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

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Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#211
post #122

I've come across a lot of similar sentiment from ex-Flash devs, who romanticise its heyday as a period of fertile creativity (true) and say that HTML5/JS/CSS/SVG is an inadequate replacement (false). In truth, the fundamental capabilities of the modern web platform matches and typically exceeds anything that was offered by Flash. What these people are really lamenting is the ease of authorship that Flash provided to…

This raises the question - what paid HTML tools are available today which are as easy to use and have similar capabilities as the old Adobe tools?

none - flash is still the only tool i know of that had the scene model which allowed you to have animations within objects in the scene. It was a very easy model to use, but is powerful.

Flash can export to html/canvas iirc. I dont think the lack of tools is the reason why html5 didn't replace flash in terms of output of new games/animations.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#212
post #132
post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

The weird contrarian "actually Flash was good" takes I've been seeing all over today is absolutely bonkers. It's like these people think we weren't around when Flash was a thing or they just have rose colored nostalgia glasses on. Flash was absolutely horrendous. Also, people keep talking about how easy it was to create stuff in it and how JS/HTML involves too much coding. This is more revisionist history - Flash had…

Flash was good.

The internet is a much less interesting place without it, and the amount of ceremony required to replicate in HTML5 what any Tom, Dick or Harry could slap together with Flash is insane.

We have regressed here.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#213
post #168
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the components that are needed to be that runtime and then some. A tool should give us what Flash did but with the HTML runtime. The author doesn't argue a tool like Flash should exist. He just states the fact that HTML has still not caught up to fill the blank caused by…

The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. An authoring software just like Flash could exist for the HTML runtime -- it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem. Thus it's not HTML which has to "catch up", but vendors of authoring software.

> The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime.

Yes, this is what I meant. Sorry, I didn't clarify this in the replied comment.

> it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem

It is in some degrees. The same html/js code might run some differently in different browsers, from either behaviors or performance aspects.

On the other hand, Flash runtime only presents some small behavior differences on different OSes or with different CPU architectures. And for different OSes/browser combos with the same-power CPUs+GPUs, there is almost no performance differences.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#214
post #132
post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

The weird contrarian "actually Flash was good" takes I've been seeing all over today is absolutely bonkers. It's like these people think we weren't around when Flash was a thing or they just have rose colored nostalgia glasses on. Flash was absolutely horrendous. Also, people keep talking about how easy it was to create stuff in it and how JS/HTML involves too much coding. This is more revisionist history - Flash had…

I was around when flash was a thing and it was actually great for small hobby development. Waaay better then what is now.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#215
post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

For what it's worth, distributing SWFs bundled with the player as an executable was something that was popular and trivial to do. It used to be called a Projector

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Flash was fantastic (for games). AS3 is one of my favorite programming languages I've ever worked with, but Flash wasn't just a programming language. The display tree (put simply: game engine) was baked into the runtime, which made it very very easy to make games. The tight coupling between art (movieclips created in Flash the program) and code (AS3 written in FlashDevelop or notepad) made for very fast iter…

One could argue we have more games today and they are more richly animated and more complex than it ever was and they have better reach to more number of users (with iOS / Android) than ever before. So from a user's standpoint, things have become better not worse – they don't have to compromise security or accept horrible battery life in doing so. From the developer's standpoint, things have improved too – they don't…

Flag games were not for people who want complex games. It is like arguing by seven series long Game of Thrones when people complain about lack of short story fanfic community.

I miss flash games and scene that existed around it. Including free aspect of it and ease of development of it. I do not care about complex games game studios put out.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#217
post #2

Why didn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR take off as successor to Flash? It is available for all platforms, runs ActionScript.

I have an old version of the Pandora AIR-based app that I'm holding onto for dear life. It still works wildly better than any of the subsequent UWP or Windows Store apps.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#218
Every few years this argument pops again that flash is still not yet fully replaced. And then the same arguments from both sides start up that the one side either has a rose colored view on flash and the other side sees stuff to Linux centric at a time where windows was king. I programmed in flash for over 10 years. I started flash in school after building a few HTML pages with Java script. My plan was to become a web designer and I hated the fact that my pages looked utterly different on the same is with different browsers. So I testet flash and it was awesome for what I wanted. I started out with Actionscript 1 but never found the footing. A few years later I started with AS2 and thought myself OOP from books (I was ongoing media designer at the time). I had to make a decision at around 2008 if I want to go into the flash programming field as the company who hired me had a strict split between design and programming. So I went to become a programmer and learned AS3. I adopted Adobe Flex and this got my food in the door for the next 2 companies I worked for. It was 2013 when I started my last Flash based project and I switched over like a few other coworkers to iOS development (which I‘m also no longer doing). Flash for me was a Kickstarter for my carrier. That could be seen as a rose colored view. At the same time I remember all the struggle I had with the technology. The Textfield implementation was a mess. The timeline which is a very great concept for animators becomes completely useless and is actually in the way when your program flash for real. The later steps Adobe did to bring gpu and mobile support was beyond my reach as we had to keep the minimum flash player support (for us player 9 and later 19). I was happy to move on and try something else. I was able to bring my flash experience to cocos2d for iPhone. My company is using Unity now for development and I hate it with a passion. I never wanted to use it because it brings all the worst sides of flash development back. You are constantly in fear that the next version will break or remove a feature your project needs. I looked into web development with react in 2018. I even went to a advance workshop to learn how to use it with all its new features (hooks at the time). I really think react is good but the rest around it is a mess. Webpacker, Bable and npm/yarn are so damn complicated. I wished a few of the traits flash had would come back. But I‘m also happy it is gone for good.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#219
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no free equivalent available targeting HTML/JS I commented to the same effect elsewhere, but I would take this a step farther. There is no alternative, free or paid, Open Source or proprietary, targeting any platform (even just iOS or Windows) that is as good as Flash was at rapid prototyping and accessible game creation. To me, the focus on the web is really frustrating. Unity is not as good as Flash was…

the flash/macromedia creative suite is so good, and even tho it wasn't free, it was popular (with plenty of pirated copies obviously). If your thesis is true that the web/html api could've been just as good as flash had there just been a suite of tools to create the content, then why doesn't one already exist? I think the true underlying issue is that the expectations of the users have grown - "simple" animations tha…

> then why doesn't one already exist?

I think that's the big question that these threads need to be asking, because it's not just that it doesn't exist for the web. It doesn't exist anywhere for any platform.

Coming in and just saying, 'HTML5 can't replicate Flash' -- not only is that inaccurate, it's unhelpful. We need to ask what modern developers need and why we seem to be unable to supply that. What are our modern tools missing? Would Flash still be relevant for indie development today? Do we need something more extensive or powerful? Do we need to rethink developer workflows? Is the problem funding, or finding a way to monetize, or is it a community problem where we just can't get indie devs to standardize on one tool?

Every thread where people complain about the loss of Flash could be a really productive conversation about what a modern animation engine would need and how we could build one. But instead it's just people re-litigating a 15-20 year old fight for no reason.

Because the APIs are there. Any company could build an animation engine today that output to any low-level language: C, Rust, whatever. And the output could be compiled to WASM and the pixel buffers could be rendered to a canvas. We could even do smart updates and partial re-renders and cache large operations on separate canvases. Or that frame compilation could happen behind the scenes in WASM and the image data could be spit out as a single array of pixels. We could do all of the optimizations we need.

But that tool doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the web, or for iOS, or for Android, or for Windows, or for any modern console. Why? That's the productive question to ask, that's the question that will actually help us make progress towards replacing Flash. The only thing the web can provide is APIs and technology, at some point game devs need to stop complaining about the web in specific and start asking why our game dev tools in general aren't up to snuff.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#220
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly, it has always cost roughly as much as Photoshop during Adobe ownership. That is to say: prior to the Adobe CC pricing model, Flash cost many hundreds of dollars. I did a quick spot check on Archive.org and it looks like "Flash Professional 8" had a retail price of $700 in 2006. $20/mo is definitely a lower barrier to entry than a one-off $700 payment.

Really? All those kids making those stick figure animations on the early web sites had access to 700$ software? Sounds amazing.

Nah. Someone have them copy for free (yes piracy) and then they gave copies to their friends.

Piracy was pretty normal back then.

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