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HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

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Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#101

Post by taf2 »

ineedasername wrote: post #98
olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

In practice it wasn't too uncommon for a single web page to also be a constellation different interdependent swf files. One for each menu, button, forms, etc. The author's points hold true at least somewhat if you're talking about a single cohesive Flash application, but much less so if you're talking about a website built with flash.

itwasathingofbeauty.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#102

Post by shams93 »

olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

It was always hell to get hired to edit a swf file where the client didn't know you need the original fla to edit the thing the swf was not enough.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#103

Post by naikrovek »

epistasis wrote: post #30
larsiusprime wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. The one ultimately responsible for Flash's death was Adobe, who neither felt it was worth investing in to overcome these issues, nor worth open sourcing to let the community give it a try. What a loss.

Remember when Adobe added Flash content to PDF? That's just how little they understood the technology they owned.

That doesn't mean anything, Adobe has added support for everything to PDF. Adobe wanted (and tried hard for a while) to make PDF the defacto way to use the web. Instead of authoring HTML you'd publish PDFs. Links would take you to other PDFs within Acrobat Reader. Acrobat Reader was the browser they wanted people to use, before anyone knew what a browser was. So, they had to have Acrobat Reader support all of those content types.

For Adobe I give full marks for cajoñes and long term thinking, but I'm gonna have to deduct points for the closed nature of it all.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#104

Post by nanodeath »

olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

IIRC one of Chrome's various selling points when it launched was that Flash was bundled in, so 1. you always had Flash and 2. the plugin was more likely to be properly compatible with the browser, and 3. because Chrome updated constantly, that means you got updated Flash, too. So they definitely were trying to address that glaring pain point you brought up.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#105

Post by nl »

nanodeath wrote: post #104
olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

IIRC one of Chrome's various selling points when it launched was that Flash was bundled in, so 1. you always had Flash and 2. the plugin was more likely to be properly compatible with the browser, and 3. because Chrome updated constantly, that means you got updated Flash, too. So they definitely were trying to address that glaring pain point you brought up.

This is very true, and often forgotten.

Initially it was a strategy to reduce security incidents caused by out-of-date Flash plugins.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#106

Post by rendall »

saurik wrote: post #38
devwastaken wrote: post #27

The proof is in the pudding. Nobody makes webgl+javascript 2d animations hostable anywhere. There's little to no websites that will host arbitrary content like they could with swfs. Luckily browsers don't matter, and newgrounds has their own flash player you can launch content with.

Yeah: the "real winner" here is simply the closed garden of native applications, all purchased from a two-party oligopoly (which is where all of those use cases now exist, de facto); it isn't a coincidence that Apple not only spearheaded both results, but also holds back a lot of standards for the open web on their mobile devices :/.

This. I don't understand why more people don't see this connection. It was obvious to me even at the time that Thoughts on Flash was more about driving traffic to iPhone and the App Store than about actual issues with Flash itself

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#107

Post by rendall »

tyingq wrote: post #58
ogre_codes wrote: post #12

The author is right. But Jobs was also right, Flash was fundamentally to resource intensive for mobile and arguably still is. Without mobile, Flash was doomed. Flash also has a bunch of other issues in terms of security and performance on PCs which were never really addressed.

Jobs didn't like Flash because it was a potential escape from the walled garden. I have my issues with Flash, but Jobs' reasoning was purely business model.

I see you're getting downvoted, but you speak truth, here

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#108

Post by redisman »

hactually wrote: post #6
hactually wrote: post #4

In my opinion, focusing on replacing the technology with languages rather than tools was the issue. I wonder if something like figma/webflow, that allowed the WYSIWYG nature of flash, combined with an or web assembly output would be a solution?

The other thing missing from all this is that, most people who started with Flash, in my experience, all started with a cracked/pirate version ... the SaaS model killed that.

It was long dead before the SaaS model really. After iphone dropped support the writing was on the wall

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#109

Post by larsiusprime »

ineedasername wrote: post #98
olyjohn wrote: post #11

The tweet mentions that you could 'just' send an SWF file to someone and it played. Well, if anybody had to fix a computer, or hosted anything Flash-based during that era, then they would know that's bullshit. Sure maybe with the standalone Flash player it worked allright, but that's not how people really used Flash. Even in my experience, a single SWF running locally didn't always work across all versions of Flash p…

In practice it wasn't too uncommon for a single web page to also be a constellation different interdependent swf files. One for each menu, button, forms, etc. The author's points hold true at least somewhat if you're talking about a single cohesive Flash application, but much less so if you're talking about a website built with flash.

Yes, flash websites were a bit of an anti-pattern even then (brilliant jewels like Homestarrunner.com aside)

Point I didn't mention clearly enough was that single-file-as-default was REALLY good for flash portal distribution. Made it easy for creators to share and easy for portals to ingest files, AND to "steal" them from eachother, which was something us developers actively encouraged, it's how you got your game or cartoon played/watched by millions of people.

Re: HTML5 still doesn't replicate what mattered about Flash

#110

Post by redisman »

Vorh wrote: post #48
acid__ wrote: post #46

Anyone have a good explanation for why someone hasn’t built a true replacement? e.g. a good, widely used flash-like tool that compiled down to a HTML5 bundle of assets?

I haven't worked with Unity, but doesn't it compile to web?

Unity is a fine game engine but where flash had a handful of abstractions you needed to make games, unity has hundreds. It’s never going to reach the same audience (as in the non technical devs)
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