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European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

eci.ec.europa.eu

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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#121

Post by oblio »

Scandiravian wrote: post #120
oblio wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece, for sure. They would have defaulted and the drachma would have probably been at a point where a loaf of bread would cost millions of drachmas.

On the contrary, the eurozone is a massive reason for the Greek economy collapsing as catastrophically as it did in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis It also doesn't matter how "many" of a currency is needed for a loaf of bread, as long as the supply is available. The Italian lira was extremely inexpensive, but as long as the government made sure the supply matched the demand there was no issue Edit: I'd also say…

What about savings? What about salaries? Hyperinflation absolutely wrecks the lives of regular people.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#122

Post by username90 »

Scandiravian wrote: post #118
username90 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a politician funds all their initiatives via debt instead of taxation in order to get popular support and thus push the problems down to the line that is a pretty shitty thing to do, but it is fine sometimes you have to do it and there is a tradeoff. But when they then argue "Taking on debt is actually a good thing, don't blame me for doing it I had to do it! Everyone does it! Paying off debt is actually a bad thi…

I'm sad to hear that you automatically label people you disagree with as "shitty people" and they "deserve shitty treatment". It eliminates the possibility for dialogue, empathy and learning You essentially block yourself of improving yourself by realising you might be wrong about something It sounds to me like you think of a national economy as a household budget. Taxes are income and welfare is expenses, you take l…

> National debt is simply the amount of the national currency in circulation.

> Government debt have no interest

No it isn't, this is such a stupid dumb lie, why did you fall for this? The big fat liars really got to you. USA paid 500 billion in interest on their government debt last year, "Interest free" my ass.

https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.ht...

And about my harsh language, your side on this is like the "smoking doesn't cause cancer" propaganda funded by tobacco companies. Some must have strong incentives to want to increase government debt, otherwise such crap wouldn't be spread around.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#123

Post by Scandiravian »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #119
Scandiravian wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sovereign nations don't indebt themselves through banks. They're not taking out loans to fund their spending, so they don't need a creditor Avoiding hyperinflation is about "how" you spend the money, not where they come from. In the case of Zimbabwe, the events leading up to their crash was massive destruction of productivity, which meant their wealth generation no longer matched the amount of money in circulation Th…

This is patently false and a rather strange claim. Sovereign nations do indebt themselves through banks and financial markets in general, most often through the issuance of bonds, which can be defined as highly tradeable loans. This is why sovereign debt is given a rating by credit agencies and why interest rates on debt freely vary based on the perceived risk by creditors. This also means that it can become difficul…

I think you're missing the point

A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation. It's simply a way of saying "hey, there's too much money around. If you let us remove some of it now, we'll give you back more in the future"

There's literally no situation where a sovereign nation would not be able to pay out the bonds it has issued. It's simply a matter of making the money printer go "brrrrr" and presto - the debt has been resolved

In the most broad terms, the only difference between realising bonds and simply printing the money is the lag time

As you say yourself - there is no magic

In the case of Zimbabwe, and as stated very well by imtringued in the other post to this thread, Zimbabwe could have invested in production, education, and infrastructure to grow the economy, instead of trying to sell bonds, which is essentially saying

"Hey, you know this currency that is rapidly loosing value - we're going to print so much more of it in the future! Doesn't this seem like a great investment?"

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#124

Post by eecc »

username90 wrote: post #77
eecc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s problematic. You don’t just move your residence on a whim like it’s picking a different pair of socks on an online store. In EU at least, people tend to hold onto their network more strongly and uprooting is a highly stressful and somewhat traumatic experience. Not to mention that moving in a “cheaper area” reduces opportunities and becomes an income local minimum you can’t escape that easily. I don’t have an…

The duality of UBI discussions: > UBI will make people stop working, why work when you can get money for free? > I wouldn't be able to live the luxurious life I lived as a worker if I went on UBI, how is that fair?

Uhm, no. Those are two straw man arguments that don’t help the discussion.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#125

Post by username90 »

Scandiravian wrote: post #123
mytailorisrich wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is patently false and a rather strange claim. Sovereign nations do indebt themselves through banks and financial markets in general, most often through the issuance of bonds, which can be defined as highly tradeable loans. This is why sovereign debt is given a rating by credit agencies and why interest rates on debt freely vary based on the perceived risk by creditors. This also means that it can become difficul…

I think you're missing the point A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation. It's simply a way of saying "hey, there's too much money around. If you let us remove some of it now, we'll give you back more in the future" There's literally no situation where a sovereign nation would not be able to pay out the bonds it has issued. It's simply a matter of making th…

> In the most broad terms, the only difference between realising bonds and simply printing the money is the lag time.

Another significant difference: Printing money transfers wealth from the rich to the poor, borrowing transfers wealth from the poor to the rich. So countries which cares for their poor and low corruption among politicians see low government debt rates, while countries like USA where politicians are very close to rich people just continues borrowing forever.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#126

Post by mantas »

scotty79 wrote: post #90
mantas wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, how does UBI work with different life circumstances. Does a disabled person get extra to cover wheelchair maintenance? Does allergic person gets more to afford allergy-OK food? Does woman get more to cover pads/tampons?

It's just fixed amount of money that may or may not cover for your specific needs and preferences. Variability in those needs are taken care of outside of UBI. You can still have a separate funds for medical equipment and you can still have prices of pads subsidized by goverment to promote hygiene.

The original idea of UBI was to drop all welfare apparatus, add saved moneys to welfare budget and then give it away equally.

But now it's turning into a beast that doesn't remove much of existing complexity and adds additional welfare. Money source for a meaningful payout be damned.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#127

Post by Scandiravian »

username90 wrote: post #122
Scandiravian wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad to hear that you automatically label people you disagree with as "shitty people" and they "deserve shitty treatment". It eliminates the possibility for dialogue, empathy and learning You essentially block yourself of improving yourself by realising you might be wrong about something It sounds to me like you think of a national economy as a household budget. Taxes are income and welfare is expenses, you take l…

> National debt is simply the amount of the national currency in circulation. > Government debt have no interest No it isn't, this is such a stupid dumb lie, why did you fall for this? The big fat liars really got to you. USA paid 500 billion in interest on their government debt last year, "Interest free" my ass. https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.ht... And about my harsh language, your side on…

I'm sad you think that about a person you do not know, since it to me is a signal that you are not interested in having an open discussion on the topic

Bonds have an interest rate on them, that essentially equate to the government saying "X amount of years from now, we'll be printing this amount of money". It's a roundabout way of simply printing money directly

If a bond need to be realised the government switch on the money printer and hands it out (though it's not really a printer, since it's all digital). If they hadn't issued the bond they could simply create the exact same amount of money and have the exact same amount of "national debt". Sure it's called interest rates, but from the government's side of the table it makes no difference

The government can print infinite money at any time and there is literally no difference in the taxes needed, the level of national debt, or the government's ability to fund welfare whether they issue bonds or not. Bonds are a plan for how much the government expects to print in the future, not loans that requires taxes to be paid

It's your choice to put me in some box belonging to a "side". I don't see myself that way and you telling me which side I belong to is not really going to change that. It does however make me sad to read your message. I think the world already has too much conflict and the only way I can see out of it is with dialogue, openness, and empathy

Putting people in boxes, on a "side", or assigning them a label prevents all of those and will only create more conflict and more frustration

I'm guessing you're scared of the concepts in MTT, since you're comparing it to the tobacco industry.

My personal experience is that understanding people you disagree with is the best way to move past being scared. I hope you make a choice for yourself to approach disagreement in a more constructive way for your own sake

I'm fine with you having a different worldview than me, but I'm not really interested in hearing what you have to say if it's not done in a respectful dialogue, so I'm not interested in discussing this further with you

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#128

Post by mytailorisrich »

Scandiravian wrote: post #123
mytailorisrich wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is patently false and a rather strange claim. Sovereign nations do indebt themselves through banks and financial markets in general, most often through the issuance of bonds, which can be defined as highly tradeable loans. This is why sovereign debt is given a rating by credit agencies and why interest rates on debt freely vary based on the perceived risk by creditors. This also means that it can become difficul…

I think you're missing the point A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation. It's simply a way of saying "hey, there's too much money around. If you let us remove some of it now, we'll give you back more in the future" There's literally no situation where a sovereign nation would not be able to pay out the bonds it has issued. It's simply a matter of making th…

> "A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation"

Another patently false and strange claim...

I am puzzled by where you might have got all of these "theories" from.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#129

Post by Scandiravian »

oblio wrote: post #121
Scandiravian wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the eurozone is a massive reason for the Greek economy collapsing as catastrophically as it did in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis It also doesn't matter how "many" of a currency is needed for a loaf of bread, as long as the supply is available. The Italian lira was extremely inexpensive, but as long as the government made sure the supply matched the demand there was no issue Edit: I'd also say…

What about savings? What about salaries? Hyperinflation absolutely wrecks the lives of regular people.

What about them?

You're just listing questions without contributing with any alternatives or reflection on what has been said by others

Hyperinflation is an extreme case and others have already posted several answers to this, which you have chosen to ignore

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#130

Post by Scandiravian »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #128
Scandiravian wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation. It's simply a way of saying "hey, there's too much money around. If you let us remove some of it now, we'll give you back more in the future" There's literally no situation where a sovereign nation would not be able to pay out the bonds it has issued. It's simply a matter of making th…

> " A nation doesn't issue bonds to cover the cost of its spending, but to remove money from circulation " Another patently false and strange claim... I am puzzled by where you might have got all of these "theories" from.

Here's a working paper from the levy institute, which covers the issue http://www.levyinstitute.org/publications/can-taxes-and-bond...

Or you could simply spend some time reading the Wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory?wprov=s...

Since you now twice called my statements "patently false", without offering any evidence to your argument or even explaining them, I'd like you to provide some sources to support your claims

H

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