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European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

eci.ec.europa.eu

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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#21

Post by lcamach84 »

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible with this economy and so we have to think of a post-work society.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#22

Post by oblio »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I don't know what kind of economic books you've read, but mine had terms such as "hyperinflation" in them :-)

If anything, stuff like global currencies ($, €) bail out their respective owners because they're world reserve currencies. Some of the smaller Eurozone countries would have definitely defaulted, had hyperinflation, etc, without the Euro. Now they're in recession instead, which sucks a lot but still less than the alternative.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#23

Post by danishdev »

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

Too much Gran Hermano watching. You can't both not value money (avoiding work), and value money (complaining about your economic disadvantage), at the same time.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#24

Post by HuwytNashi_010 »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I wonder how "educated" one need to be before they can believe that.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#25

Post by mytailorisrich »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I wonder which "modern" theory this comes from...

Some debt is a good thing because, like for a business or individual, it is generally a good thing to borrow in order to invest for the future (leveraging effect).

But too much debt is not a good thing. Debt must be serviced and one need to find creditors willing to lend.

Infinite borrowing based on "full control of currency" only means that the value of the currency decreases towards zero and creates hyperinflation: can Zimbabwe support a debt of trillions of Zimbabwean dollars? Sure... But how much is a Zimbabwean dollar worth? Close to nothing and people need a wheelbarrow full of cash to buy a loaf of bread.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#26

Post by op03 »

jdmoreira wrote: post #17

What I would like to support is a large and long term study involving multiple families in multiple European countries with multiple values.

Having seen quite a few EU funded software projects going no where for years and years, its hard to believe they have the capacity to pull off anything complex. Lots of good people and intentions but idk how it all fizzles.

They are good at organizing conferences and barbeques though.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#27

Post by js8 »

Scandiravian wrote: post #15
emteycz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

In addition to the above, which I agree with, you might also view money not as a resource, but a vote in economy. If we assume that people are motivated by money, they will still work even on UBI, because what UBI shifts is just who is voting (who is making the decisions to produce stuff).

So having an UBI is not really that different than change in demand from one set of products to another, which the economy should be able to handle even according to classical theories. But people are still rewarded for useful work even in the system with UBI, as usual. In fact, if many people decide not to work with UBI, and you do a useful job, your salary might go up, since demand from all these people for your work has gone up.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#28

Post by didibus »

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

Supposedly it would help with #3, because you'd need to tax something to get the money no?

Also, I've always wondered, if unemployment is so high, is it because the work just isn't needed? Does spain already produce and provide services in a way that scale to all its population?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#29

Post by eecc »

Ekaros wrote: post #19
oh_sigh wrote: post #12

How does UBI work with different costs of living? Do city dwellers get more than rural folk?

And should they? Or is it reasonable to expect that those unable to work temporarily move to some low/reasonable cost area of living? Or find solution sufficient solution with the ubi they get.

That’s problematic. You don’t just move your residence on a whim like it’s picking a different pair of socks on an online store. In EU at least, people tend to hold onto their network more strongly and uprooting is a highly stressful and somewhat traumatic experience. Not to mention that moving in a “cheaper area” reduces opportunities and becomes an income local minimum you can’t escape that easily.

I don’t have an answer or know better...

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