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European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

eci.ec.europa.eu

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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#61

Post by thinkingemote »

africanboy wrote: post #47
lcamach84 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible w…

> However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all And to keep the jobs of those doing that kind of production. I read an article a few years ago about Spaniards living in small flats more than any other country in Europe. There are a few features of Spain that can explain why: - Spain is mostly empty space and population is concentrated in cities - Spaniards spend a lot of th…

Just a note about Spain. It's mostly Catholic so culturally the protestant work ethic is pretty weak there.

Same also for Italy and Ireland I guess. It's half and half in England. It's more protestant in Scotland, and of course the US was founded on the notion

The south of Germany is meant to be Catholic but I don't know if culturally they are more laid back when it comes to work there.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#62

Post by agumonkey »

Barrin92 wrote: post #57

I dislike UBI a lot. (coming from the left side of the European political spectrum for what it's worth) for a few reasons. The first one is that I think work is a fundamental aspect of personal life and people feel deeply rewarded for being compensated for it. UBI is underpinned by a sort of Wall-E philosophy of human nature. It in a weird way presents itself as humanistic but is deeply apolitical and anti-social. Se…

Activity is important but the welfare dependency doesn't seem much worse than the normal job market / company dependency. I was harassed and conned a few times in my jobs and the notion that the people in front of me holds the power to my monthly finances was a heavy and dreadful feeling. And they know it.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#63

Post by chous »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #13
rubycon22 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened? Some people got a one-time $1200 check. What could they have done with $1200 that made you lose faith in UBI? Or are you referring to the $600 that supplemented the unemployment insurance? But those went to people who were just recently working and had their livelihoods wrecked by government action and/or inaction. I'm pretty sure you would agree they deserve that money and it's okay for them to do wha…

It illustrates, if needed be, that handing meaningful amounts of money to all or most of the population in a recurring way is not sustainable. The responses to the covid lockdowns, which are incredibly expensive, were only considered because they were one-offs and time-limited. If payments are restricted to a minority, the poorest, then it boils down to what already exists in most European countries and the question…

Most people are getting poorer. Their only way out is fighting for a job, but jobs are scarce, and the situation will get worse exponentially due to technological unemployment.

That's not an ideologically-constructed problem.

It's pure logic. What is ideologically-driven, in my opinion, is claiming that "other jobs will be created, so no need to worry". Which implies, on the other hand, that the poor deserve being poor, due to their own negligence, lack of education, or laziness. We don't need to care about them. We provide a capitalist system which rewards the brave and the competent, and it's meritocratic. That is pure ideology, not based on reality.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#64

Post by africanboy »

thinkingemote wrote: post #61
africanboy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all And to keep the jobs of those doing that kind of production. I read an article a few years ago about Spaniards living in small flats more than any other country in Europe. There are a few features of Spain that can explain why: - Spain is mostly empty space and population is concentrated in cities - Spaniards spend a lot of th…

Just a note about Spain. It's mostly Catholic so culturally the protestant work ethic is pretty weak there. Same also for Italy and Ireland I guess. It's half and half in England. It's more protestant in Scotland, and of course the US was founded on the notion The south of Germany is meant to be Catholic but I don't know if culturally they are more laid back when it comes to work there.

> It's mostly Catholic so culturally the protestant work ethic is pretty weak there.

So is Italy, my country.

And I think there is a strong correlation with the fact that in Italy and Spain capitalism is different from, say, Germany or Netherlands.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#65

Post by sofixa »

Aqua wrote: post #48
js8 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a petition. If it succeeds, the only thing EU has to do is to discuss it, and these things can be discussed. Personally, I would like UBI to be tied to GDP per capita, like say 10% of the GDP would be redistributed to every person. It would help to solve the wealth and income inequality problem that causes huge misallocation of resources (for example, EU has twice as many empty apartments than it has homele…

So you're advocating for stealing these empty apartments from their owners and giving them to the poor, obviously, for free?

Is it "stealing" if its something unused and actually needed for basic life and decency by other people?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#66

Post by Scandiravian »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #25
Scandiravian wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National debt and private debt are two very different creatures. National debt is for the most part a good thing, since it's a measure of the amount of a national currency is in circulation Modern economic theory proposes that nations, with full control over their currency, have infinite spending power (aka can go into infinite debt) without any issues, as long as full-employment hasn't been reached This is of course…

I wonder which "modern" theory this comes from... Some debt is a good thing because, like for a business or individual, it is generally a good thing to borrow in order to invest for the future (leveraging effect). But too much debt is not a good thing. Debt must be serviced and one need to find creditors willing to lend. Infinite borrowing based on "full control of currency" only means that the value of the currency…

Sovereign nations don't indebt themselves through banks. They're not taking out loans to fund their spending, so they don't need a creditor

Avoiding hyperinflation is about "how" you spend the money, not where they come from. In the case of Zimbabwe, the events leading up to their crash was massive destruction of productivity, which meant their wealth generation no longer matched the amount of money in circulation

The trust in their currency took a nosedive, because of the confiscation of assets from wealthy farmers - basically a clear message saying, that the government will not protect assets purchased with their currency, making it risky to own and use

Most western economies are much more stable and have high levels of demand for their currencies, which acts as a counterweight to inflation as well

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#67

Post by agumonkey »

dusted wrote: post #58

I've been a proponent of this idea until now that I am in a position to vote for it. Now I'm not sure if I'm convinced that people are ready for it. I've invested significant effort in working and having a job, and, I wouldn't have have done that if I knew I could have still "gotten by" without, I'd definitely not be where I am today without that outside pressure to _not_fail_. I'd be probably dead or at least morbid…

From where I stand the most important part is rent, water, veggies and some meat. The rest most people can learn and do themselves on their free time. Maybe have fablabs generalized so you get access to space and tools and off you go.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#68

Post by alex_duf »

Barrin92 wrote: post #57

I dislike UBI a lot. (coming from the left side of the European political spectrum for what it's worth) for a few reasons. The first one is that I think work is a fundamental aspect of personal life and people feel deeply rewarded for being compensated for it. UBI is underpinned by a sort of Wall-E philosophy of human nature. It in a weird way presents itself as humanistic but is deeply apolitical and anti-social. Se…

I don't think people stop working with UBI. What it does provide though, is a safety net to make sure you'll have food on the table but no more.

Suddenly if you're hating your job, it's not that scary to tell your boss that their abuse is over. You can have some time to re-train, and be whatever you really wanted to be.

There's also loads of activities that aren't counted as work that would suddenly become very developed such as volunteering.

Yes, some people might suddenly realise that if they live on the cheap they might play video games all day, but I don't think it will be most people.

It also depends how it's rolled-out, if its start at 50 EUR a month, then increases each year for the next 15 years, the economy will have the time to adapt, the citizens will have the time to adapt etc.

It also present an interesting effect. Low paid jobs that aren't well valued such as cashier or delivery person will become less attractive and will have to be paid decently to be worth it. Contracts with a lower amount of hours would also become more common

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#69

Post by imtringued »

emteycz wrote: post #6
rubycon22 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened? Some people got a one-time $1200 check. What could they have done with $1200 that made you lose faith in UBI? Or are you referring to the $600 that supplemented the unemployment insurance? But those went to people who were just recently working and had their livelihoods wrecked by government action and/or inaction. I'm pretty sure you would agree they deserve that money and it's okay for them to do wha…

It's not about what the people done and faith in them or their claims from moral or other points of views. These $1200 nearly destroyed the European economies. My country is forever indebted now, and they handed out much less and not even to everyone but a small portion of people.

Does your country suffer from unusually high employment in full time positions or why are you worried about debt? Debt is a way to make people work today for a future reward.

If people don't work they lose their productive output irrevocably and can lead to a cycle of poverty. The damage caused by unemployment is far worse than any damage caused by debt because debt can be reversed easily once you have mild inflation around 2-3%. Just the effects of inflation alone will reduce the debt burden, let alone the potential tax increases through higher employment or the economic growth that will happen once the economy is no longer broken.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#70

Post by scotty79 »

DeonPenny wrote: post #50

Why wouldn't any company of wealthy person just leave these countries. As these developing countries start to rise and compete. They get safer to live in. They built solid infrastructure. One may ask why live in these places

Why would you leave the country where people who spend all of their income have more money?

You want to sell to them as much as possible, at inflated prices because they can afford it.

Even manufacturing is not obviously a problem there. Sure you can't blackmail your employees with being destitute, but those who choose to work for you are doing so out of their free will which may improve quality of their work. Also more better quality employees migh be available there because they had time and flexibility for self-improvement instead of being forced to work any job just to sustain themselves.

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