European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#51

Post by mkl95 » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

polskibus wrote: post #40

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

How come you don't observe massive emigration with such levels of unemployment? In Poland it is hard to find workers (observed for example by long waiting queues when asking around for builders, heat or water specialists, etc. In general construction and house refurbishment market is booming during covid. PL demographics projection is very bad , further worsening the forecasts on the market. Wages are growing but the…

Spain had a massive property / construction bubble years ago. Wages grew substantially until 2008, when the industry crashed. It shattered the economy for many years until we started to slowly recover, in 2015 or so.

The last few years before COVID, wages were improving and things were looking a bit better overall. All of that seemed to vanish the moment lockdown started.

Regarding lack of skill, as a developer I notice two things:

1) Most young people seeking a technical position are hilariously unqualified despite having spent many years studying some engineering degree. School here has no connections with the real world and there is a lack of personal project culture.

2) Those who are qualified have to compete against hundreds of applicants for a position. Job scarcity is a serious problem for developers here, since it also means having no leverage to negotiate your working conditions.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#52

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:18 AM UTC

I'm on state money right now, and volunteer to keep some sane life schedule. And going to a place to do things without thinking about salary blackmail is uplifting. You go there, see what's have to be done, do it, go home. Very interesting experience.

That said I wonder, if done globally and long term, I wouldn't fall into laziness or very low productivity life (stress levels would sure fall to zero too, which is good)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#53

Post by refurb » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:18 AM UTC

eecc wrote: post #29

Ekaros wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And should they? Or is it reasonable to expect that those unable to work temporarily move to some low/reasonable cost area of living? Or find solution sufficient solution with the ubi they get.

That’s problematic. You don’t just move your residence on a whim like it’s picking a different pair of socks on an online store. In EU at least, people tend to hold onto their network more strongly and uprooting is a highly stressful and somewhat traumatic experience. Not to mention that moving in a “cheaper area” reduces opportunities and becomes an income local minimum you can’t escape that easily. I don’t have an…

Let the tweaking of UBI begin!

Give it a decade or so and it will look like any other social program. An army of bureaucrats to manage a complex system.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#54

Post by imtringued » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

enaaem wrote: post #35

jdmoreira wrote: post #17

What I would like to support is a large and long term study involving multiple families in multiple European countries with multiple values.

I don't think the outcome is very interesting. There are all ready subgroups in society who have some kind of UBI like pensioners and trust fund babies. I want so see the effects on the total economy. If for example UBI leads to massive inflation it would completely nullify the UBI. How about productivity? Saudi Arabia is an interesting example, since their economy pretty much runs on free oil money. Saudi nationals…

>I want so see the effects on the total economy. If for example UBI leads to massive inflation it would completely nullify the UBI.

Actually that would be highly desireable because it would mean the UBI acts as "employment of last resort" rather than free money, except you don't have to do anything to keep your job. It also means that every job will pay more than UBI which means there is no incentive not to work. Considering the financing challenges you want as few people as possible on the UBI.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#55

Post by roenxi » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

mkl95 wrote: post #14

As a middle class Spaniard, these are a few things that stand out about my country's economy: 1) Unemployment rate is very high (16%+) 2) Under 25 unemployment is extremely high (40%+) 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet 4) The country lacks affordable housing (property and rent are expensive when compared to salaries) Some areas of Spain have implemented different forms of basic…

> 3) Inequality is very high, with 10M+ people struggling to make ends meet

Whatever people mean when they say inequality, I don't see how a UBI can help. If some people are not working hard enough to justify their existence to the economy without a UBI, they are never going to be even imaginably close to equal with someone running a big company.

The only way for the economy to recognise someone who is only sorta-working is equal to someone who is devoting their life to running a successful and productive business is to bankrupt everyone. It isn't going to happen, and if it does happen it will be worse than the status quo.

Inequality isn't a problem. Low living standards among the poor is a problem. Conditions at the unhappy end of the spectrum is more important than both conditions at the good end and the gap between the two endpoints.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#56

Post by refurb » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #18

oh_sigh wrote: post #12

How does UBI work with different costs of living? Do city dwellers get more than rural folk?

Also, how does UBI work with different life circumstances. Does a disabled person get extra to cover wheelchair maintenance? Does allergic person gets more to afford allergy-OK food? Does woman get more to cover pads/tampons?

Not sure why you’re downvoted. Completely reasonable question.

Not everyone has the same needs. So UBI either has to be so high that everyone can have a basic standard of living (e.g. a nurse for a disabled person) or you retain a plethora of other social programs to address those needs.

And I always ask - what about the drug addict that blows through their whole UBI on day 2? What then? Let them starve in the street? Of course not, there will be a separate social program for them as well.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#57

Post by Barrin92 » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

I dislike UBI a lot. (coming from the left side of the European political spectrum for what it's worth) for a few reasons. The first one is that I think work is a fundamental aspect of personal life and people feel deeply rewarded for being compensated for it. UBI is underpinned by a sort of Wall-E philosophy of human nature. It in a weird way presents itself as humanistic but is deeply apolitical and anti-social.

Secondly it creates dependency between receivers and givers. I'd rather empower workers collectively than make people dependent on welfare. This, in contrast to UBI is I think viable across the spectrum and actually what people want.

I think UBI rests on a sort of naive utilitarianism that overrates material equality and underestimates what's wrong with the system as it is and what really makes people angry and pessimistic. For that reason I also don't think it's ever going to get a political majority.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#58

Post by dusted » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:21 AM UTC

I've been a proponent of this idea until now that I am in a position to vote for it. Now I'm not sure if I'm convinced that people are ready for it. I've invested significant effort in working and having a job, and, I wouldn't have have done that if I knew I could have still "gotten by" without, I'd definitely not be where I am today without that outside pressure to _not_fail_. I'd be probably dead or at least morbidly obese from doing nothing but sitting and watching TV/playing videogames.

I'm actually more in favor of entirely removing any economic support, that people can use to buy what they _want_, I'd much rather give people what they _need_ to survive, anything beyond that (tobacco, alcohol, entertainment, fashion clothing, cars, etc..) should be the privilege earned by working.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#59

Post by bassman9000 » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

africanboy wrote: post #47

lcamach84 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible w…

> However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all And to keep the jobs of those doing that kind of production. I read an article a few years ago about Spaniards living in small flats more than any other country in Europe. There are a few features of Spain that can explain why: - Spain is mostly empty space and population is concentrated in cities - Spaniards spend a lot of th…

So in a way people go to work for reasons other than simply the salary.

This is critical. Most people think passion first, then you'll find the perfect job, and it's not always like that. You may need to work for a while in order to find what you truly are good at, and enjoy.

For that to happen, though, there needs to be reduced red tape and taxes, so switching jobs is easy and affordable for both parties.

UBI torpedoes this: it means higher taxes, and reduces the incentives to look for a better job.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for Unconditional Basic Income

#60

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 10:23 AM UTC

spenat wrote: post #32

A state job guarantee (everyone who wants a minimum wage job can get one), with or without the rest of the MMT package, would: 1) Be less repulsive to those who think that salaried work is virtuous in itself. 2) Not discourage work (people would still need to do something) These "jobs" could include any activity that is good for the person and/or society, like taking care of old/dependent people, studying, working fo…

State job guarantee makes valuable workers go to useless jobs. It makes harder for private companies to recruit those workers. State job not only gives income that disincentives workers to search something better but also tire them and binds them with inertia.

Just giving people money is way less harmful then giving them money and excuse of a job to take away their time and strength from them.