Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

611–620 of 820 posts

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#611

Post by wolverine876 »

eznzt wrote: post #94
xyst wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.

These reviews are not necessarily independent. If they don't yield any results the organisations lose their funding. So they have the incentive to be as dishonest as Apple and China are.

> not necessarily

Do you have any serious evidence? Otherwise we are raising random possible problems. Maybe it's a false flag! Maybe it's the CIA or FSB or Martians! Maybe! Not necessarily!

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#612

Post by MereInterest »

Alupis wrote: post #593
thescriptkiddie wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Paying someone (a pittance, mind) doesn't make forced labor not slavery. Read the 13th amendment.

Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery". Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?

Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#613

Post by arentyouspecial »

Alupis wrote: post #606
arentyouspecial wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they did when they said “ Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.” I’m not down playing the Chinese labor camps, I’m taking issue with claiming the prison labor in the US is some moral good. It’s exploiting people, not attempting to rehabilitating them…

You're forgetting the prison labor programs in the US are largely voluntary. I say largely because there are some cases where punishment dictates certain number of hours worked, etc... but we're splitting hairs at this point.

Then why aren’t they paid a fair wage? Keep moving the goal post, but these people are being exploited.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#614

Post by wolverine876 »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #588
valuearb wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to want to kill flies with nuclear weapons. The vast majority of third world workers benefit from free trade and freely choose the jobs it produces. Protectionism sentences people far poorer than you to far worse economic lives. Taking away Apple assembly jobs doesn’t increase third world wages or worker protections, it makes them worse. Those workers are consigned to work back in brutal rural jobs that not…

My countries government should understand the implications of the policies it impliments, including the impact on people in other countries, but my governments first concern shouldn't be those other peoples, it should be it's own citizens! For those who seriously try to understand this topic, the implication you aren't talking about (and a myriad more) is that due to this we can expect the first world standards/wealt…

> My countries government should understand the implications of the policies it impliments, including the impact on people in other countries, but my governments first concern shouldn't be those other peoples, it should be it's own citizens!

The people in other countries are human beings with exactly the same value and rights as I have. The responsible thing to do is to do both. Just like my responsibility is to both take care of my family and my community and the world, all at once. If I sacrifice one, I'm irresponsible and failing. I would be (and sometimes am) ashamed that my government fails at those responsibilities.

The parent assumes a zero-sum tradeoff, but that's not how trade, peace, and freedom work - they benefit everyone. Thankfully, I have great solutions internationally. Globalization and the democratic world order have been the most successful international policies by orders of magnitude. Name any point in history, any approach to international trade or international relations, that has yielded the success of the post-WWII era? Not only in economics, but in peace and freedom.

We need to do better. What better option do you offer, that will improve the lives of the next generation

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#615

Post by briantakita »

legulere wrote: post #513

As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.

A downstream issue with importing the product of forced labor into the US is that US manufacturing markets, business (small & medium in particular), labor, & markets affected by finance are distorted. The argument that an influx of cheap foreign goods & cheap labor costs are good for the economy does not properly consider the long term & strategic costs of hollowing out large markets where the USA once lead the world as well as the poverty/blight incurred by former middle-class communities.

I grew up in Hawaii, which used to have a large sugar cane industry. I found it strange that the sugar cane was shipped to the mainland, to be processed, then packaged, shipped back, & sold to the consumer in Hawaii. The value added was effectively removed the local market, which created a monopoly for H,C,&S to buy land, have authority over water rights, allowing them to break treaties & promises to the citizens of the islands. There were also celebrated things that occurred due to the sugar industry, such as importing many people of different ethnicities to work in the plantations.

Today, Hawaii has highly prized land, which is expensive, & many families living there for generations who do not make much money. With few employable industries (government & tourism being the largest employers), the economy is vulnerable to Black Swan events, such as the Covid lockdowns.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#616

Post by Alupis »

MereInterest wrote: post #612
Alupis wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery". Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?

Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery. https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/

You have an uphill battle to convince anyone being paid (any amount) for voluntary labor is akin to slave labor.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#617

Post by mgh2 »

briantakita wrote: post #615
legulere wrote: post #513

As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.

A downstream issue with importing the product of forced labor into the US is that US manufacturing markets, business (small & medium in particular), labor, & markets affected by finance are distorted. The argument that an influx of cheap foreign goods & cheap labor costs are good for the economy does not properly consider the long term & strategic costs of hollowing out large markets where the USA once lead the world…

Keep in mind part of the demographic you are talking to here- (mostly) high salaried tech and the elite. Does this affect them? They will happily ignore these issues as long as they keep on getting their shiny iPhones and Macs.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#618

Post by wolverine876 »

thepasswordis wrote: post #347
MaxHoppersGhost wrote: post #29

I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this. People fall for it and it really pisses me off. Welcome to marketing. It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. It’s reprehensible and disgusting.

The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin Kaepernick. He is literally paid by slavers . He is a multi-millionaire off of the profits of slave labor. It's disgusting that Nike is somehow putting forth a "woke" face while literally using slaves to build their products . Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars from slave…

Kaepernick isn't the issue, his message is. Attacking the messenger is a way to change the subject. What do you think of his message?

Nike doesn't buy and sell slaves. Critics don't need to be perfect - if they do, there can be no critics.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#619

Post by drak0n1c »

Cyph0n wrote: post #522
thepasswordis wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin Kaepernick. He is literally paid by slavers . He is a multi-millionaire off of the profits of slave labor. It's disgusting that Nike is somehow putting forth a "woke" face while literally using slaves to build their products . Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars from slave…

Sounds like the kneeling really got to some people!

The President's casual tweeting really got to some people too. Weird. Perhaps it's a common and reasonable response to be concerned when an imprecise arrogant messenger amplifies tribalism and grievance politics.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#620

Post by Alupis »

arentyouspecial wrote: post #613
Alupis wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting the prison labor programs in the US are largely voluntary. I say largely because there are some cases where punishment dictates certain number of hours worked, etc... but we're splitting hairs at this point.

Then why aren’t they paid a fair wage? Keep moving the goal post, but these people are being exploited.

Yes, you can indeed continue to move the goal posts, but acknowledge we're far into the weeds and even further from what the article focused on - Religious Slave Labor Camps in China.

Why aren't inmates paid a "fair" wage? Well, that's up for debate and I think I'd enjoy hearing pros and cons.

Some cons I could think of are:

* These are inmates, serving a sentence as punishment for a crime they were convicted of.

* Most of their living expenses are already provided.

* Alternatives include doing nothing all day instead of a job.

* If inmate labor cost what non-inmate labor costs, why would anyone hire inmates?

* The labor programs are largely voluntary.

* The money earned is used as a reward for participation, good behavior, and showing a willingness to work and get along with other inmates. Misbehave and you don't get to work, and don't earn money.

Now maybe it is time to step up some sort of minimum wage for inmates... but that doesn't distract from atrocities the CCP is committing in present day.

Post reply on HN