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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#551

Post by koonsolo »

Siira wrote: post #543
arminiusreturns wrote: post #466

To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an is…

I agree, but globalism has on the whole improved the human condition by a lot. The vast majority of people aren’t middle-class citizens of developed countries. Like everything, balance is key.

Indeed. Without the outsourcing, they would still be in those same conditions, but earning less. Now there is external money coming into their economy.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#552

Post by valuearb »

staunch wrote: post #536
matsemann wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of blaming globalism, maybe one should make companies responsible for their external effects? As in, lawfully responsible, to be tried as if they did it themselves. Like pollution, using other companies to do their unethical biddings etc (child or slave labor for instance).

Why not just ban outsourcing to countries with poor labor laws? The commonly stated purpose of the U.S. outsourcing to China was to 1. help lift it out of poverty and 2. bring it democracy through capitalism. Goal #1 has been largely achieved and Goal #2 has been an epic failure. The U.S. should completely phase out outsourcing to China over the next decade. This would drive a huge acceleration of automated manufactu…

Sounds like a great way to crush third world countries deeper into poverty. I love it!

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#553

Post by esarbe »

ardy42 wrote: post #469
f6v wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.

>> tyrannical dictatorship > I honestly think that's a bit too far. Tyrannical oligarchy moving towards dictatorship, then. Better?

Thanks for the effort, but I think I really would like to stick with 'tyrannical dictatorship'. For me, it just fits better.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#554

Post by esarbe »

onethought wrote: post #493
esarbe wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)

Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#555

Post by dillondoyle »

onethought wrote: post #523
jack_h wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... Could we get some citations to back this up? It seems too soon to even evaluate all of the effects of the (soon to be) previous administrations policies. But as a discussion point, Trump moved to end the postal subsidies China enjoyed which made it cheaper for us to have something shipped from there than to buy locally. How does…

That’s a single policy. Perhaps that’s a good one? Imagine a world where China and the U.S. were on better terms, start of the health crisis China helped provide huge amounts Of PPE required. Drs and epidemiologists from China with experience could have helped drs in the US. Instead they were coming off the back of a trade war over soy beans and hiding information from each other. Globalisation has effects that expan…

I don't buy that. it's not reality.

To me it's two fold: - The US would not have a relationship say similar to Britain/US because of the fundamental differences and problems with CCP's behavior - Vis a vis the CCP's habitual covering up of anything embarrassing and Xi's / CCPs singular focus on maintaining and growing their own power. see COVID, SARs and the many examples from business to free speech & 'press.'

It's circularly not possible.

CCPs behavior must fundamentally change, (or scarily the US becomes like CCP)

The hiding was squarely on CCP. Maybe you could argue if COVID popped up in US first it would have been the same.

But if the tables were turned I don't believe there would be any attempts to hide facts and not offer support beyond Trump's own incompetence and pathological personality disorder wishing it would 'magically go away' so he could get elected again.

--

And to the parent parent there are plenty of facts both ways but it's impossible to separate effects of policy from the HUGE negative pain caused by Trump's abdication of responsibility. Trump has undeniably left us in a horrible place, far greater than any gains from policy.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#556

Post by matthewdgreen »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #291
matthewdgreen wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.

You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take the option, they're still under punishment doled by the justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment".

The question is not whether it’s immoral. The question is whether it’s “voluntary” when the alternative is punishment. If pretending that this kind of work is voluntary is the only way you can make it morally palatable to you, then maybe you have a deeper issue that you’re blinding yourself to. It’s better to be realistic about what’s happening, and then decide whether you can live with the reality.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#557

Post by koonsolo »

matsemann wrote: post #527
arminiusreturns wrote: post #466

To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an is…

Instead of blaming globalism, maybe one should make companies responsible for their external effects? As in, lawfully responsible, to be tried as if they did it themselves. Like pollution, using other companies to do their unethical biddings etc (child or slave labor for instance).

How can you know that all of your suppliers comply to some rules?

Do you know all the saas you buy was not made by exploited people?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#558

Post by valuearb »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #466

To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an is…

You seem to want to kill flies with nuclear weapons.

The vast majority of third world workers benefit from free trade and freely choose the jobs it produces.

Protectionism sentences people far poorer than you to far worse economic lives. Taking away Apple assembly jobs doesn’t increase third world wages or worker protections, it makes them worse. Those workers are consigned to work back in brutal rural jobs that not only pay less but are far more dangerous.

Globalism is how the third world living standards catch up.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#559

Post by mads »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #221
LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...

> I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations... I don't think so. Nothing happened with Tibet, or after the Tiananmen Square event AFAIK. 20 years ago, the people that signed all the trade deals with countries such as China claimed it would lead to improving democracy and human righ…

it was also a time, where the hero in that movie could carry a Taiwanese flag on his back.

or a time where you would see Winnie the Pooh movies being made.

little by little...

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#560

Post by dillondoyle »

eznzt wrote: post #13

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

If you don't believe them would you believe the US government, State Department, EU government, and the world's best free and independent press?

What about leaked primary sources from CCP [leaks]?

Huge volume of facts and research from all kinds of sources on the systemic genocide and forced labor of Uighurs and other ethnic / geographic minorities (Tibet, now scarily Hong Kong jailing and threatening the previously free press).

You can even see it on Google Maps.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-sit... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/xinjiang... https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/what-forced-labor-in-xinjian... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/resolution-121920191... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20191212IP... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/asia/china-muslims-... https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-r...

[leaks] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...

[maps] https://nationalawakening.org/coordinates/ https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/satellit... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo...

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