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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#491

Post by matwood »

mrweasel wrote: post #122
duxup wrote: post #56

I fault companies like Apple for doing business with companies who do these things. But I'm not sure if anything changes if local governments aren't interested in stopping it (or actually support it) either. Markets don't care about human rights... and if the local government supports this (in this case China, but other places too). I don't see how this ever changes.

What I don’t understand is why companies want to be associated with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference can’t be that big. Also why isn’t it news? It feels like something that should have journalists camping outside Tim Cooks office. While I question his motives, it’s kinda weird that Trump of all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical of China.

Cost is part of it, but the other big piece is logistics. As we learned early in the year, Apple is moving manufacturing outside of China, but it takes time. Something like the iPhone is made in an industrial area where many of the part manufacturers are next to each other. This lets various parts be easily sourced and delivered. So when Apple wants to move to a new country, the end goal has to be to move the entire complex, and not just a piece. That takes time.

> While I question his motives, it’s kinda weird that Trump of all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical of China.

You fell into Trumps distortion field. Many are critical of China, but the difference is what to do about it. Trumps idea was to go it alone with tariffs, rhetoric, and go after things like TikTok. IMO, that's not a plan or a real policy.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#492

Post by Fezzik »

Judgmentality wrote: post #485
amelius wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's systemic, you could at least try to do something about it if you're one of the big guys. This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one.

> This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one. How is Apple trying to be a leader in anything besides profits?

Apple absolutely attempts to present itself as a morally/ethically superior company. See, for example, from just 7 months ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/31/apple-ceo-tim-cook-email-to-...

Or, re the environment, from Apple’s current website: https://www.apple.com/environment/

You can find all sorts of similar posturing on a number of topics from Apple.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#493

Post by onethought »

esarbe wrote: post #408
f6v wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.

[flagged]

That fits the US foot as well...

- Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage)

- Spying on allies (breaks international agreements)

- Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#494

Post by anoraca »

heavyset_go wrote: post #489
onethought wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty through forced labor, correct?

That's a straw man. They're saying that hundreds of millions of Chinese people (and others around the world) have risen out of poverty because of globalism. You're only giving credit for the negative impacts of globalism, and in kind of a duplicitous manner.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#495

Post by downrightmike »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #422
JoshTko wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sources are you getting the organ transplants information from?

Directly from Enver Tohti, a Chinese doctor who was involved in organ harvesting: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/surgeon-cla... > But when Tohti arrived at the destination, he was shocked to find at least 10 prisoners had been shot in a field by a firing squad. > Armed police waved the surgeon and his medical team over and directed them to a man lying unconscious on blood-soaked ground. > Tohti said…

Fuck, that is way worse that I had heard. JFC

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#496

Post by bllguo »

TheKarateKid wrote: post #430
f6v wrote: post #331

It's cute that so many HN readers consider this accusation to be true. However I'd like to remind you that China and USA are engaged in a modern edition of Cold War. I'd argue it's naïve to think that such reports can't possibly be part of this war.

It is wreckless to compare the Chinese media -- which is controlled and censored by the CCP -- to the US media which the government has little/no control or punishment over what they publish. At worst, Western media has bias from those in the media, not the government itself.

Westerners bring up this lack of overt government control as some kind of end-all, be-all argument. Realistically it doesn't matter, practically speaking. The bias is there regardless. Didn't stop people reporting about WMDs in Iraq, isn't stopping the flurry of misinformation about China currently, etc. The comparison is completely fair

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#497

Post by heavyset_go »

anoraca wrote: post #494
heavyset_go wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty through forced labor, correct?

That's a straw man. They're saying that hundreds of millions of Chinese people (and others around the world) have risen out of poverty because of globalism. You're only giving credit for the negative impacts of globalism, and in kind of a duplicitous manner.

If the virtual slaves aren't being made wealthy from their forced labor, then who is and why should we support them?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#498

Post by chongli »

Fezzik wrote: post #492
Judgmentality wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one. How is Apple trying to be a leader in anything besides profits?

Apple absolutely attempts to present itself as a morally/ethically superior company. See, for example, from just 7 months ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/31/apple-ceo-tim-cook-email-to-... Or, re the environment, from Apple’s current website: https://www.apple.com/environment/ You can find all sorts of similar posturing on a number of topics from Apple.

Why should we consider any moral stance, by any for-profit corporation, as anything other than marketing?

The real problem, as I see it, is that individuals see their relationships to corporations as anything other than transactional. Strange things happen when people adopt a company’s marketing effort into their personal identity.

Instead, we should be looking at corporations objectively and deciding whether their incentives align with our own. Keep our identities with other individuals, not with corporations and branding.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#499

Post by downrightmike »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #386
YawningAngel wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't clear to me that prison labour in the US is meaningfully distinct from slavery

Except for the due process trial, conviction, and sentencing.

yeah, that's the way it is justified, repaying debts to society.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#500

Post by onethought »

heavyset_go wrote: post #489
onethought wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty through forced labor, correct?

I agree “forced work” or slavery should be stopped. But go and visit these factories in China... the people are their voluntarily... because their alternative is worse than those conditions.

Like I said economies develop, China should improve its workers rights laws, and slowly it has and will.

We should avoid and remove slavery. Agree.

But using developing countries as an example of why developed countries should be more protectionist at exactly the point in time where the US tried that and lost out on almost every front is insane and disconnected from reality

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