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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#91

Post by HuwytNashi_008 »

sudenmorsian wrote: post #24
HuwytNashi_008 wrote: post #18

I'm very envious of the Chinese for having a government that unapologetically puts the interests of their people over foreigners. Part of why this is so shocking to us Westerners is that it's such alien behaviour. We have become conditioned to expect foreigners are treated with extreme preference.

I suppose the Uyghurs in detention camps are not included in “their people” then?

Is anyone saying that they are? All coverage refers to them similarly to this article - they are a Muslim ethnoreligious minority.

The parallels to Muslim minority integration in the West is probably why it is so interesting to Westerners. The disparate treatment by governments is what makes it so striking - in China they are second class citizens; in the West they are favoured over the indigenous population.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#92

Post by stefan_ »

jonathannat wrote: post #88
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

The good news is all macro trends portend to factories leaving faster out of China. And less trade with China. - Unfavorable Views of China Reach Historic Highs in Many Countries in 2020 https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-vi... . Consciously or subconsciously, consumers will favor goods made not in China - US President-elect Joe Biden affirms his anti-China position. On Monday, he slammed China…

Okay, but it was the Indian iPhone slave workers actually rioting.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#93

Post by nomoreusernames »

_pp0b wrote: post #41
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

was? you do know that slave markets exist today right? also isis sold the daughters and wives of minority groups deemed to be infidels.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#94

Post by eznzt »

xyst wrote: post #20
eznzt wrote: post #13

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.

These reviews are not necessarily independent. If they don't yield any results the organisations lose their funding. So they have the incentive to be as dishonest as Apple and China are.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#95

Post by esarbe »

bbarn wrote: post #52
xyst wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.

but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)

In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle.

So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people investigate.

No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#96

Post by judge2020 »

hobs wrote: post #83
judge2020 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the issue with using China manufacturing at all, although, even if Apple moved production to the US, chances are they'd still be facing forced labor allegations since they'd still need to get shipments from China for parts that can't be made in the US.

And then they'd actually have a foot to stand on in terms of defending their position.

I don't think so. Even if you just get shipments for the rare earth materials that aren't present in first-world American countries, Apple would need to do the same supply chain audits all the way from shipment to mining, and they'd still be accused of using slave labor since apparently these audits don't work and using China at all introduces slave labor into your supply chain.

For now it still makes sense to do last-leg manufacturing in China since moving to the US has no benefits from a PR standpoint (due to the reasons above) and has huge negatives with needing to import the raw materials instead of just shipping the final product from China -> Alaska -> Continental US customers.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#97

Post by koheripbal »

jonathannat wrote: post #88
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

The good news is all macro trends portend to factories leaving faster out of China. And less trade with China. - Unfavorable Views of China Reach Historic Highs in Many Countries in 2020 https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-vi... . Consciously or subconsciously, consumers will favor goods made not in China - US President-elect Joe Biden affirms his anti-China position. On Monday, he slammed China…

This trend is not what you think it is. The factories are moving to other countries, but still owned by Chinese firms and still using the same, if not more brutal tactics.

They are just moving the chips around the board.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#98

Post by simonh »

hobs wrote: post #77
simonh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like it may well be going that way, sure, but making this about Apple is headline bait. It's about China. The fact is you can't buy a single thing made in China and be sure it isn't implicated in this in some way. Think of the last few things you bought that were manufactured or sourced some parts in China. Can you honestly say the manufacturer audits their supply chain with the same rigour? At least Apple i…

So we shouldnt shame the richest company on earth for using slave labor because its about "china"? If anyone has leverage, its Apple, so actually yes its a way to start fixing the problem. There's a simple way to keep slave labor out of your supply chain, stop doing business with people who are fine with that, not "performing audits to find out they are using slave labor again so we switched!"

How do you know which supplier is "fine with that", and how do you anticipate a supplier before they decide to change over to using illegitimate labour?

Auditing suppliers, verifying supply chains and switching away from cheaters is one way to address the issue. Another is to not do business in China at all.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#99

Post by [deleted] »

daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#100

Post by simonh »

delecti wrote: post #45
christophilus wrote: post #34

I’ve decided to leave the Apple ecosystem in 2021. But the problem is not isolated to Apple. In fact, I’d be surprised if other, cheaper products aren’t quite a bit worse. Is there an electronics company that does a better job? (That’s not a rhetorical question.)

Fairphone is your best bet with smartphones, but I'm not sure if there's similarly ethically produced hardware of other types.

Fairphone have dozens of suppliers in China, some of them indirect, and they say in their own literature they can't directly vouch for every company in their supply chain.

They're in exactly the same boat as Apple. IMHO this is about China, not any one company.

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