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Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#191
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? Because the bureaucrat had to prove their merit among the whole population while the rich entrepreneur just had to prove their merit among other kids that were privileged enough. Just think of Bill Gates that went to probably the only school that had a computer in the world.…

let's say someone is born into extreme poverty, and through decades of hard work becomes wealthy enough to give his child a great education and a 1 million dll inheritance. is it not his right to use his money on his child? then lets say this child turns this education and inheritance into 1 billion dollars worth of wealth. does this have no merit?? ive seen many people squander privileged upbringings, i think if you…

I don't understand why people go to such great lengths to give current injustices the benefit of the doubt ad infinitum, even constructing ridiculously rare and hypothetical scenarios like that.

The real outrage here is the millions and millions of people squandering their talents in some shite job due to lack of opportunity, not the handful of billionaires that started from nothing and whose children might now be taxed somewhat.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#192
post #2

These conclusions seem to spit in the face of "meritocracy". It's always puzzled me that this idea of meritocracy, especially in tech (notably USA), is so pervasive, bleeding into our corporate performance reviews and our pro-diversity efforts ("we hire only according to merit" ). But it is so internally irrational. I'm reminded of this argument: > The case against meritocracy can be put psychologically: (a) The abol…

Wasnt the study performed in Bangladesh? Since when is Bangladesh considered a meritocracy?

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there were great policies established under the new deal. I would caution advocating for blanket rescuing of the economy from market failures, though. The recent stimulus provided by the US congress to the airline industry is a perfect example of executives taking advantage of taxpayers. I would also push back against the idea that the last 50 years have been destructive economically.

An example of a market failure is climate change, or at least many market failures are contained within this problem. Are you suggesting the government take a hands off approach to that? At the end of the day the government is necessary to the functioning of capitalism, we need to help people out of poverty so that among other things the economy can actually improve. That's all I'm arguing for, and I think there is u…

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Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#194
post #191
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's say someone is born into extreme poverty, and through decades of hard work becomes wealthy enough to give his child a great education and a 1 million dll inheritance. is it not his right to use his money on his child? then lets say this child turns this education and inheritance into 1 billion dollars worth of wealth. does this have no merit?? ive seen many people squander privileged upbringings, i think if you…

I don't understand why people go to such great lengths to give current injustices the benefit of the doubt ad infinitum, even constructing ridiculously rare and hypothetical scenarios like that. The real outrage here is the millions and millions of people squandering their talents in some shite job due to lack of opportunity, not the handful of billionaires that started from nothing and whose children might now be ta…

I don't know man... I dont think its that rare for someone to climb out of poverty. Maybe I just see it this way because I did it myself (born in a 3rd world country, single mom, step father with bad addiction issues, barely graduated HS)

Now that Im a father myself, Im of course trying to give my child the best opportunities, but also trying to raise him to be grateful and disciplined.

So I'm not talking about the billionaires. Im talking about regular people who can now grant their children not private jets, but just a good private school.

What would be fair in this scenario? How can we make things equal/just in this case?

Also I dont think its rare or hypothetical at all, that rich kids never learn to work hard and squander their good fortune.

-- EDIT, i completely agree its absurd and completely wrong that 1% of people have 50% of the wealth, that should not be that way.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#195
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all well and good to argue around a very literal meritocracy, but I don't think anyone actually argues for this. It's not just "lol, 1 - 1 = 0, meritocracy is impossible". The underlying principal, as I understand it, is that it's unreasonable to think for example, that mark zuck literally does millions of time more work than say, a senior software dev at a middle size company, or a farmer. Yet zuck is compen…

> it's unreasonable to think for example, that mark zuck literally does millions of time more work than say, a senior software dev at a middle size company Careful not to confuse work and value. Sheer labor is worth minimum wage, the value of someone is far more than their hourly labor. A well connected person can bring many many times the value to a company of someone without connections. The right strong personalit…

> Careful not to confuse work and value. Sheer labor is worth minimum wage, the value of someone is far more than their hourly labor.

I am. It's not me being careless. We reward both by the same means - money. Not my fault it's this way. I think it's perfectly reasonable of me to work from the means of compensation outwards, when making comparisons.

> The long and short of it though is a person who makes the people beneath themselves work more valuable is worth that added value, and arguably deserves a proportional portion of said added value.

In my opinion, this is nothing more than business based, pyramid scheme level, cult-like thinking. I'm a well paid webdev. The company is fairly flat, there are only two distinct levels above me - engineering management, and founder-ceo(s).

My day to day work is designing and building out random systems, and handling tech debt. I would be doing this in a vacuum too, and to the same standard. The personality and input of the ceo has little to no bearing on my performance. Me and my team would perform equally well under any given non-maniac. CEOs are not like, high level gods or something. They aren't remotely as rare a set of personality traits as the voodoo-thinking of SV seems to think. C-tier management is not literally multiplying my output. Sensible feature requests from users and sensible filtering by product managers has ten times the impact that C-tier has on my work.

> deserves a proportional [...]

> Steve Jobs can be argued to be an example of that

The resignation and subsequent death of Jobs had, in the macro perspective of apple's stock prices, literally no impact on the value of the company. Apple stock is currently over x10 what it was when he was there. An essentially infinite number of things took place that were far more important than Job's personality, which lead to the success of apple. He was more like a train driver railing down the tracks than some maverick cutting through the jungle. At least Bill Gates has the introspection to realise this. General luck, and luck of timing is what generated nearly all of that value, and the rest was generated by labour. Somewhere in there is some ephemeral and unquantifiable sliver of value coming from the specific personality of the founders / ceos.

So, what proportion do we dole out? Who do we compensate for luck? For all of the endless work done before that wasn't compensated to the moon but was absolutely required for this moon-level capital generation? It's all too up in the air to try and rationalise that CEOs should earn one million times what a farmer earns and think that makes any kind of sense at all.

Think of all of the wealth, (generational too) that came from equally traited men setting out for oil. Literal random chance would go on to create mega-empires that have lasted a hundred years. Our current system of compensation, is pretty close to being nothing more than a load of bollocks, when it comes to this kind of thing.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How am I a nutcase? For what its worth, I'm successful and happy so I don't take offense. Lions don't worry about sheep.

> I'm successful Yes, as you've told us in a few comments.

does that bother you, itsoktocry?

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name one way that does not involve theft of property.

Before we start naming ways, are you somebody who thinks taxation is theft?

Are you somebody who can prove that it is anything but?

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing up-front funding for crazy ideas like electric cars and reusable rockets when everyone else is too stupid and shortsighted to is itself productive activity. In fact it is the most important productive activity: figuring out what to do, what is a good idea, and being willing to bet the returns of your previous labour on it and wait. The return on investment is the payment it is in our self-interest to give f…

But how do we know who will come up with good ideas about what to do? Why Musk? Because he managed to earn a lot through PayPal? Does that business skill (and luck) carry over to decisions about rockets and populating Mars and developing AI? Why not give a billion to a random business owner to come up with what to do?

Why Musk what? The point is that it's not about Musk. We're talking about whether Musk "deserves" his billions in profit and the answer is it's not about Musk, and it's not about "deserve". It's about all the people who benefit because of the existence of spacex/tesla/etc, who wouldn't benefit if we refuse to pay for the work of intelligent investment (by, say, seizing profits), because that would prevent their existence in the first place.

Certainly, if you think you can identify people who are particularly qualified to pick good ideas and make investments in them, it's not a bad idea to give them some money (but where do you get that money? hopefully not somewhere with negative externalities such as stealing it from different random business owners). Although structurally it's better if the billion itself is given as an investment instead of a gift, because then the person giving the billion has "skin in the game" themselves. Which is basically what I think VCs do, although I don't know how effective they usually are.

(Yes, this whole thing assumes a regulatory framework where businesses that have negative externalities or are otherwise bad for the world do not make profit. Indeed, companies that use dark patterns or rent seeking tactics to make profit should be legally punished, and if such punishments make them bad investments it's a good thing, because it means they were on net bad for the world.)

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#199
post #194
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people go to such great lengths to give current injustices the benefit of the doubt ad infinitum, even constructing ridiculously rare and hypothetical scenarios like that. The real outrage here is the millions and millions of people squandering their talents in some shite job due to lack of opportunity, not the handful of billionaires that started from nothing and whose children might now be ta…

I don't know man... I dont think its that rare for someone to climb out of poverty. Maybe I just see it this way because I did it myself (born in a 3rd world country, single mom, step father with bad addiction issues, barely graduated HS) Now that Im a father myself, Im of course trying to give my child the best opportunities, but also trying to raise him to be grateful and disciplined. So I'm not talking about the b…

I also have a working class background, but in Sweden. The last thing I would like to do is to pull up the ladder that enabled me and so many others a better chance to a secure and comfortable life. The inheritance tax was actually recently abolished here, but not due to some popular uproar but because right-wing parties got into power.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have another suggestion? Do you not see any value in developing the technology necessary to get to Mars - in order to travel elsewhere? And to answer your question, yes. Successful, accomplished, professional, adult scientists - like myself and my friends - do honestly believe that.

> Do you have another suggestion? You could start with investing heavily in this planet, which is significantly more habitable than mars. Electric vehicles were a great start, but there's a lot more than EVs and reselling battery and solar equipment from China that can be done. > Do you not see any value in developing the technology necessary to get to Mars - in order to travel elsewhere? I see some value, and if Mr.…

Do you have a comparative analysis of the ROI of these initiatives? Or is it just baseless conjecture?
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