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We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

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Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#41

Post by sradman »

Lewton wrote: post #10

This seems very Canada specific, is any other country doing it like this? I'm fairly sure neither the US nor most european countries are doing this (I mean, Canada seems to be the only place that are reserving the second doses) Edit: This article is clearly being upvoted based on title alone

Ontario was the only province to start with this strategy. Retired general Rick Hillier, chair of Ontario's vaccine distribution task force, discussed the strategy in a CBC interview on Dec 14 [1] just before the rollout.

[1] https://youtu.be/PSFX5qFVzhw?t=369

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#42

Post by adriancr »

raverbashing wrote: post #38
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Israelis give shots to medical workers and oldest citizens first. This should drive down the death rate pretty fast. If this approach works, Covid-related deaths in Israel should visibly drop by the end of January.

All countries are doing these groups first, of course Israel is probably the country doing it the fastest so I agree, we should see the results faster. And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

> And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

the 90%+ effectiveness is only with 2 does, who knows how long and if it works with only one dose... it's likely not half and/or not for very long...

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#43

Post by dvivsivd »

raverbashing wrote: post #38
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Israelis give shots to medical workers and oldest citizens first. This should drive down the death rate pretty fast. If this approach works, Covid-related deaths in Israel should visibly drop by the end of January.

All countries are doing these groups first, of course Israel is probably the country doing it the fastest so I agree, we should see the results faster. And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

The CDC tried to have non-medical essential workers ahead in line of seniors.

The argument was that, although more people would die (including more African Americans), it would even out black vs white ppl deaths metric.

[edit] source:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-...

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#44

Post by Lewton »

jewayne wrote: post #29
Lewton wrote: post #10

This seems very Canada specific, is any other country doing it like this? I'm fairly sure neither the US nor most european countries are doing this (I mean, Canada seems to be the only place that are reserving the second doses) Edit: This article is clearly being upvoted based on title alone

The US is DEFINITELY doing this. Each time a first dose goes out of the Pfizer warehouse in Michigan, the second dose for it is set aside. Not only that, but they literally set aside ANOTHER 500,000 doses "just in case". They seem to be prioritizing smoothness of rollout and equity across states over immunizing the maximum number of people possible.

Whelp, guess I'm wrong on this one. That is extremely disappointing

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#45

Post by jacob019 »

adriancr wrote: post #42
raverbashing wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All countries are doing these groups first, of course Israel is probably the country doing it the fastest so I agree, we should see the results faster. And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

> And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity. the 90%+ effectiveness is only with 2 does, who knows how long and if it works with only one dose... it's likely not half and/or not for very long...

Immunity is not binary. Introducing the spike protien to our immune systems now will prime us for a stronger fight later, even if we are not fully immune.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#46

Post by sunstone »

In practice it's likely that we'll do both. That is, all the doses will be used, and none reserved, as they arrive according to a priority schedule (ICU staff, care home staff, care home residents first, etc).

Then when it's time for the second dose, the high priority targets will get their second dose immediately as new doses arrive while lower priority targets may have their second dose delayed as a first dose is given to those even further down the priority list.

The result being that those at highest risk get the double dose ASAP while the twenty year olds get their first dose at the expense of the forty year olds having to wait a little longer for their second dose. This is because even a first dose while not fully protective is protective against serious covid-19 outcomes which is a big deal in itself.

According to this scheme twenty year olds will be getting their second dose sometime in their thirties. :)

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#47

Post by zbjornson »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #6

Somewhat off topic but in theory, would it be possible to have jab #1 be Moderna's and jab #2 be Pfizer? Would it be ethical to test this? Is there anything inherent in either's approach that would make this dangerous?

That approach is called heterologous prime-boost, and it's likely being tested for the Oxford/AstraZeneca + Pfizer combo and the Oxford/AstraZeneca + Sputnik V combo to try to increase potency (not to increase supply). It's not being tested for the combo of the two mRNA vaccines (Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna) though.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#48

Post by AbrahamParangi »

raverbashing wrote: post #38
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Israelis give shots to medical workers and oldest citizens first. This should drive down the death rate pretty fast. If this approach works, Covid-related deaths in Israel should visibly drop by the end of January.

All countries are doing these groups first, of course Israel is probably the country doing it the fastest so I agree, we should see the results faster. And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

There’s actually a lot of variety in the priority order. Other than healthcare workers the following groups will be prioritized above age 65+ in Massachusetts

1. First responders

2. Nursing home residents

3. Homeless

4. Incarcerated

5. 2+ comorbidities

6. Top priority essential workers

7. Teachers

8. One comorbidity

(Check out your state here https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-va...)

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#49

Post by mannykannot »

Even if it were the case that the vaccination is only effective once the second dose is given in time, holding back half the supply is far too drastic: if the supply chain failed to the point where these doses would all be used for this purpose, we would have a much bigger problem on our hands.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#50

Post by jpdus »

I don't get why nobody seriously considers a one-dose regimen for the fastest possible vaccine rollout. All available data for both, Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines suggests that one dose is enough for >90% efficacy which would be sufficient to reach herd immunity. There was a very good opinion article in the NY Times [1] about that, but not much more.

The problem here is that a one-dose regimen was not studied in the trials. While it is good medical practice do not deviate from trial designs (see the Oxford/AZ vaccine), the data is very clear here. The vaccines are effective 14 days after the first dose and before the second dose. Sure, there are risks (maybe the efficacy drops later on or it is more difficult to reach the full efficacy if the booster shot is delayed) but these risks seem to be negligible compared to the hundreds of thousands additional unnecessary deaths due to limited vaccine supply and delayed vaccination with a two-shot regimen. We know from other vaccines that the timing of the booster shot normally is not that important and it is very probably that a booster shot after a few months would be exactly as good as a booster shot after 4 weeks.

In my opinion, nobody seriously contemplates the one-dose regimen because somebody has to take responsibility to deviate from the proven and tested protocol - politicians have nothing to win here but much to loose in case anything goes wrong. And big pharma has no interest in financing and starting one-dose trials asap b/c it would hurt their own bottom line and there is no financial incentive at all, quite the opposite (+they have the same responsibility problem). This is a deadlock which will cost many, many lifes.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vacci...

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