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Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

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Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, no. I write this in the gentlest manner possible, not directed solely at you: a lot of the "see a gate agent and they'll sort you" advice seems to be coming from a place of people who either don't travel very much at all, or who travel so much that an airline employee can practically feel their level of Airline Status(tm) from half a kilometer away and will race to their aid. I fall in the third bucket…

Is the answer still no for conventional airlines? Because if have guessed the distinguishing factor isn't the amount of traveling, but the mode (budget airlines).

I would say it is largely still no, but it almost entirely depends on the route, time of flight, and time of year. On a traditional airline in this situation, you would absolutely have some passengers who were autobooked to an alternate airport/route, even on a different airline, and taken care of, but you’d have many more who would be stuck with the changed flight time/fourteen-hour flight delay.

If the airport is a hub for an airline, you might be able to get someone to make a change, but that late at night, even that is going to be difficult, unless it is a major hub for the airline. Like, if you get stranded in Atlanta on Delta, chances are someone is around who can help you, even late at night. Same for American in Dallas, KLM in Amsterdam, Air France at CDG, Quantas in Sydney, etc.

Delta has a concept known as Red Coats, which are employees empowered to make more decisions regarding booking, but most of the gate agents are beholden to whatever the system is telling them. I’m sure other airlines have similar representatives but Delta's program is fairly unique amongst American carriers, in terms of its visibility (a tip for anyone flying Delta who has a tricky situation, especially around rebookings, is to ask for a Red Coat. You won’t always get it, but those are the people most empowered to help).

Sometimes a non-status customer can get lucky by getting on the phone while in the airport — in my pre elite status life, I’ve successfully had gate agents speak directly to someone on my phone to resolve a situation — but if it’s right before Christmas and you’re at risk for not getting home and your alternate flight is leaving soonish, you’re almost always going to be better off just booking the alternate flight and then dealing with customer service later.

But as I said in another comment, outside of LCCs, there are two distinct classes of customers for airlines. And it isn’t just enough to have spent a lot on a specific ticket (unless you’re flying international first class on Singapore or Ethiad or something — but Asian and ME airlines are a whole different world), the airlines don’t care that you paid to upgrade yourself to domestic first class or even that you’re flying international business. The people they bend over backwards for either fly enough domestic miles that they spend as much time on a plane as the crew or are people who spend at least $30k with a specific airline. I spent over $50k with Delta in 2019 (and $20k before I was grounded in March) and I still didn’t qualify for Delta 360, their invite-only loyalty tier. Don’t get me wrong, Delta has treated me incredibly well — but I’m still just one of many thousands of Diamond Medallions to them. They won’t send me someone to escort me through security when I’m in danger of missing my domestic flight (something American did for a friend who has their Concierge Key status and pre-COVID averaged $50k a year with them for about a decade), but depending on the flight makeup (depends on how many other high status people are on a flight), I’m usually going to be in the group of people auto-rebooked to a good time or booked on a different airline without having to make a fuss, in order to maintain my itinerary.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#142

I know class action has a bad reputation, but this is the type of situation it was designed for. The courts can't handle 100,000 individual claims but it can handle one very large claim with 100,000 members.

Does class action have a bad reputation? I know businesses hate it and in the US are doing everything they can to eliminate it. But as a consumer, I see it as the only way to level the playing field. If it has a bad reputation, I speculate that is the result of businesses lobbying against it in the press and with politicians.

Companies like making money and historically class action lawsuits have made it easier for employees or customers to cut into profit margins based on wrongful action by the company. The incentive to join a class action suite was less than each individual filing there own case. Hence the dislike

But, as the article perhaps alludes to, the tide may be changing on that due to legal industry automation. If law firms can file nearly identical lawsuites at scale then the incentives can again favor consumers and employees. This may not have happened in this particular case due to courts being unable to scale, but it has happened to companies like DoorDash. See https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/...

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#144
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon does a pretty good job automating returns. It’s also good enough to be a differentiator when choosing where to buy.

I had an Amazon item that didn't show up / got lost by UPS. The process presented by Amazon for this was pretty silly / tedious: 1) Initially, the tracking page said the item is late, maybe lost, if it doesn't arrive by X date (2-3 days after it was due), check back here to initiate a replacement / refund. 2) I went back on X date to arrange a refund. You click the button, initially it takes you to an automated chat…

Interesting. How long ago did this happen?

This happened to me on an Amazon -> USPS package. I clicked the "still don't have it" button, clicked refund, and saw the money refunded to my card after about 2 days.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, no. I write this in the gentlest manner possible, not directed solely at you: a lot of the "see a gate agent and they'll sort you" advice seems to be coming from a place of people who either don't travel very much at all, or who travel so much that an airline employee can practically feel their level of Airline Status(tm) from half a kilometer away and will race to their aid. I fall in the third bucket…

Is the answer still no for conventional airlines? Because if have guessed the distinguishing factor isn't the amount of traveling, but the mode (budget airlines).

filmgirlcw's experience matches mine; the answer is still "no, unless you mean something to the airline." The only difference between regular carriers and LCCs is that nobody means anything to the LCC, where at least with a regular carrier you stand a chance, just a very small one.

Twice in the past few years I have flown, on my own nickle, what's called "Y class." This is full-fare, unrestricted, usually-last-minute coach/economy class. It gets you the exact same seat as someone who booked on Expedia six months prior but costs an eyewatering amount of money because you usually bought it at the last minute and are just grateful to be on the plane. Both times, something went wrong, once with an airplane having a minor equipment failure midflight and another where the required airplane never showed up. (It hadn't taken off from its origin and we were due to fly back from an airport that only got two flights per day via this airline.)

Both times the amount of money I spent mattered little. I was an economy-class passenger with no status on that airline. I wound up having to deal with getting myself where I needed to go via another airline and clawing back the money for both unused tickets.

Unless you have status, airlines are privatized versions of public transport, just with wings. In point of fact, I've been treated better by King County Metro in Seattle[0] than I have by virtually every airline I've flown when an issue has happened.

0 - I used to work the late evening shift at my job and would take the last Seattle-bound bus of the night to get home. Once, because a driver forgot that the route served a slightly different set of stops during that part of the day versus the rest of the day, the stop I was waiting at got skipped. After 30 minutes of waiting for a bus that OneBusAway claimed had long-since departed, I called Metro's customer service line to see if it really was coming. Someone answered, reached out to the driver, and figured out what happened. They sent a supervisor in a van to pick up me and the two other passengers who were waiting and took us all directly home.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#147
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon does a pretty good job automating returns. It’s also good enough to be a differentiator when choosing where to buy.

I had an Amazon item that didn't show up / got lost by UPS. The process presented by Amazon for this was pretty silly / tedious: 1) Initially, the tracking page said the item is late, maybe lost, if it doesn't arrive by X date (2-3 days after it was due), check back here to initiate a replacement / refund. 2) I went back on X date to arrange a refund. You click the button, initially it takes you to an automated chat…

All of my refunds have been painless, many returnless. It must depend on hidden factors. One of my most recent returnless refunds was Amazon credit rather than to the payment method, probably because it'd happened too much lately. I still don't mind and their return policies are much more generous than the norm.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#148
Is there a service that provides crowd-sourced data on airplane reliability by registration number? The registration number is probably only revealed just before boarding though, so that would limit its utility.

> we could see the registration number: G-EZRU. The exact same plane that had flown out of Geneva, had both its pressure systems fail, had been known to have other problems in its service history

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#149
post #135

I like the fact these compensation rules have massive loopholes. If they didn't, I think it would more than double the price of some tickets. Sometimes I fly hundreds of miles for 10 euros (all taxes and fees included). There is no way a business can offer a refund of 300 euros if that flight is delayed. Compensation should be an optional feature - I should be able to spend an extra 30 euros on my flight to get compe…

I know that Wizz Air do something like that. You can pay some amount, and if the flight is delayed by more than 1 hour they will give you a voucher for the ticket price (I think just the base price) back. The thing is when do you ever just spend €10 on a flight? Once you add in checked luggage, the priority carry on so you can take more than a packet of crisps onboard, assigned seats so you can sit next to whoever el…

I never buy any of the extras. I hate checking luggage and I'm fine with just taking a laptop and a change of clothes pretty much anywhere, which comfortably fits under the seat in front of me.

Looking around flights, I suspect at least half of passengers do the same as me.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#150
I honestly believe that this is because it’s cheaper for them to make arrangements with the “no win no fee”-firms than to create a proper process.

When you get the first couple of “technically a lie but an excusable lie”-responds they pick out a couple of layers of complains each, then when you reach out the the “no win no fee” I’m certain their first 1-2 layers back to you are just steps in the same process “you might have a case but could take this small payment” “you have a case but it will take for ever, here’s a slightly higher offer” and these can be quickly negotiated because they just split the damage with the airline.

They have a multilevel yearlong process of starving our customers from extremely reasonable compensations, which they have deviously optimized so they can sell tickets at what? Maybe 10-20% lower rates and steal the high-volumes low rate market.

I think it’s naive to believe that this is all progressing without a level of collaboration between them and the airline that is at least unethical and potentially illegal.

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