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Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

leejo.github.io

131–140 of 159 posts

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#131
Airlines need to be extremely wary about automating things. This is an extremely sensitive matter, as it involves movement of people and people's lives.

I have been on a Viber travel group supporting people trying to get into Croatia. It consists of many American citizens. Anyways, over the past couple of days, Delta/United/Iberia have been using artificial intelligence (AI) to /automatically update/ where people can or cannot go, based off of government websites. Instead of having proper staff to look over these requirements, they use AI to screw over their customers, as the AI has errors in its interpretations for documentation required by travelers.

There have been a few people on this Viber group who have been wrongly denied boarding, right before their Christmas holiday, due to inconsistencies in the interpretations of the AI (multiple errors, type 1 and type 2), from the company Smartvel. Sadly, people of color have been the ones getting stopped more and denied boarding in the US.

This is the technology that I am talking about: https://www.smartvel.com/covid19-entry-restrictions/

This is the API plugin on Delta.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.delta.com/us/en/plan-your-next-trip/where-we-fly

This is the API plugin on United.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/restrictions-map...

Ironically, if you booked online using KLM.com (affiliated with Delta but a European airline) or Lufthansa.com (affiliated with United but a European airline) you were not subjected to this problem, even though it was the same flight through a codeshare arrangement via the airlines.

It really is inhumane. While people may not want people flying due to the coronavirus (honestly, I don't but Croatia does need the business and I want them to see my country too), these people had their plans made and their holidays were ruined over AI. It is cruel.

By the way, I am a dual US|Croatian citizen, and if Croatia allows third country nationals, such as Americans in, then I think they should be allowed in. Also, if you spend 14 days in Croatia as an American, you can basically enter the EU without issue, but you may want to check https://reopen.europa.eu/ for entry restrictions, country-to-country. It is a loophole.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#132

I think I disagree on the flight having been canceled. I'd have assumed the distinguishing factor between a flight cancellation vs. rescheduling isn't the flight number (a flight number seems like an immaterial bookkeeping abstraction?), but rather, whether a replacement flight offers seats to all of the passengers of the first flight . It seems they did this, as they say in their text message. As far as semantics is…

I believe in this case the difference should be immaterial... A delay of over 3 hours, and a cancellation have the same compensation amount.

What is the compensation for each? Is it 250 EUR for both?

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you just go to the nearest gate agent for another flight of the same carrier? I feel like they could point you to the right direction.

Realistically, no. I write this in the gentlest manner possible, not directed solely at you: a lot of the "see a gate agent and they'll sort you" advice seems to be coming from a place of people who either don't travel very much at all, or who travel so much that an airline employee can practically feel their level of Airline Status(tm) from half a kilometer away and will race to their aid. I fall in the third bucket…

Is the answer still no for conventional airlines? Because if have guessed the distinguishing factor isn't the amount of traveling, but the mode (budget airlines).

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works for a company focused on relentless customer service, I agree that that would be ideal. So far there hasn't been a profitable entrant into the airline business that's focused on customer service (EDIT: with the noteworthy exception of Southwest Airlines in the U.S.). Customers are notoriously price sensitive when it comes to non-business travel and unfortunately it's a race to the bottom. And you…

You should try airlines outside of the US, they’re near universally higher quality and often cheaper than any comparable service inside the US. And there are plenty of high quality long/medium haul airlines in general. Singapore airlines is a good example, but in general most Asian flag airlines are rather high quality.

The story is about easyJet which is definitely not a US carrier.

There are always exceptions to the rule, of course. But we're talking about domestic travel in general. AirAsia, for example, is a different beast than Singapore Air or EVA Airways.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#135

I like the fact these compensation rules have massive loopholes. If they didn't, I think it would more than double the price of some tickets. Sometimes I fly hundreds of miles for 10 euros (all taxes and fees included). There is no way a business can offer a refund of 300 euros if that flight is delayed. Compensation should be an optional feature - I should be able to spend an extra 30 euros on my flight to get compe…

I know that Wizz Air do something like that. You can pay some amount, and if the flight is delayed by more than 1 hour they will give you a voucher for the ticket price (I think just the base price) back.

The thing is when do you ever just spend €10 on a flight? Once you add in checked luggage, the priority carry on so you can take more than a packet of crisps onboard, assigned seats so you can sit next to whoever else you are flying with, and extra legroom so you don't end up with leg injuries, you are paying closer to €100. These companies are making serious bank.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#136
post #69

Rather than booking the replacement flight directly the author should have had easyjet rebook him. The author did no-show on the replacement flight provided by easyJet, and all of the griping will get them nowhere. You can’t take things into your own hands and then expect the company to refund you, the company would have provided the free alternative flight (earlier than the one the next day) and the EU fine had they…

Good luck with that. I've found gate agents either to not exist, or the 1-2 of them get completely overwhelemed as an entire flight needs to rebook. Passengers who were only connecting to another final destination add further complexity. Obviously the OP took a risk that the airline wouldn't refund his new flight but the alternative of waiting in a giant line or finding a non-existent agent from a budget carrier to h…

IME, for a plane load of people the gate agents are going to ask everyone to call the 800 number. Standing in line might get you the voucher for hotel/food if that’s what it’s going to be.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#137

You have to book through them rather than by yourself. In fact, I'm very surprised he retained the flight back. Usually they cancel your return leg if you no-show the outbound leg. It's shitty stuff from the airlines for sure. But AFAIK, they all do this at this level.

That's not the case with low cost airlines in Europe. Each leg of the journey is on a separate ticket.

This also means if you are flying there and back the same day, if there is a delay on the outbound flight and you miss the return flight it's considered a no show, so they don't need to compensate you.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another interesting takeaway is that the EU regulations meant to protect customers in exactly this scenario seemed to be pretty worthless in practice. The airlines seem to have realized that the cost of just ignoring them is easily less than the cost of following them. After all there are a finite number of people able to individually sue you, especially if you’re at the scale where you consistently screw over more c…

Not all European countries have class action lawsuits. This is something to be fixed through regulations. If the rule was "customer has to be provided the compensation to their means of payment automatically, if this is not done, the compensation triples", airlines would quickly find a way to make it happen.

> This is something to be fixed through regulations.

More regulations to force compliance with existing regulations currently being widely ignored? a few years from now you'll be saying more regulations are needed to make sure airlines comply with the regulations that were created to ensure compliance with the original regulations.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you just go to the nearest gate agent for another flight of the same carrier? I feel like they could point you to the right direction.

Realistically, no. I write this in the gentlest manner possible, not directed solely at you: a lot of the "see a gate agent and they'll sort you" advice seems to be coming from a place of people who either don't travel very much at all, or who travel so much that an airline employee can practically feel their level of Airline Status(tm) from half a kilometer away and will race to their aid. I fall in the third bucket…

Bingo. This was a LCC, so they don’t care about even the high-status passengers. I would have done what the author did too and just booked my own arrangements.

I also totally agree with your bucket of passengers.

I used to be in the first camp, naively assuming a gate agent could help me. That quickly changed after I flew more than a handful of times. Then for many years, I was in the third camp (where you are), and I had to resign myself to being one of the people that has to turn to Twitter to get anything done (I sort of hate myself for it but for non LCCs, it works) in a real crisis. For the last two years or so (pre-COVID), I was in the second camp, and it was a true revelation to see how the other side lives, so to speak.

The reality is that there are two very distinct classes of airline passengers (foregoing LCC's for a moment because with few exceptions, none of them give a rats ass about loyalty. They are a volume business). As an example, within a relatively short period of time, I went from an airline giving my seat away even though I made my connecting flight (and had contacted the airline from the plane to warn about my delayed connection/assure them I wasn’t going to no show and to only put me on a later flight as a backup), forcing me to wait an additional 5 hours in the airport for a new flight (and I stress here that I made my connection and was denied boarding) without so much as an apology or a voucher for free food to that exact same airline, when a similar tight connection actually DID cause me to miss my flight, met me at the gate, took me in a chauffeured car to another gate, had someone expedite the transfer of my luggage, got me on a different flight to another US city (meaning I had to take one more flight, but at least I got home), actually held that flight until I boarded, and kept my seat class intact (I was flying business). I didn’t even have to reach out the second time (which was good because that flight didn’t have internet access), it was just taken care of. A colleague who had the same itinerary as me, and was booked in the same seat class, had to fly back the next day. The difference? My colleague (and me in the first instance), was just a regular passenger (albeit someone with a $4000 round-trip ticket in this case — still didn’t matter). Whereas by that second flight, I was on track to fly 150,000 miles that calendar year and had already spent over $30,000 with that airline.

I'll be honest when I say that I’m not looking forward to being treated like a regular airline passenger once I’m allowed to travel again. My status's are all intact but I don’t envision many 150k mile years made up largely of international travel until at least 2022.

Side note, as someone who has always heard friends brag about how much better European consumer protection laws are, it’s both relieving and infuriating to see that the situation in the EU is basically identical to the situation non high-value US customers deal with with airlines.

Re: Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

#140
post #17
post #7

Long story short: Guy had flight canceled and wants airlines to have automated refund system. The issue is though that no company I know of really wants an automated easy path to disperse money back to the public. Ever try to collect on an insurance policy?

Amazon does a pretty good job automating returns. It’s also good enough to be a differentiator when choosing where to buy.

They're pretty good at automating returns but kind of shitty at refunds in any scenario where their system thinks you received a package that you actually did not. I've heard a number of stories to that effect, and the one time it happened to me they had a bot that charged my card every time customer service issued a refund (at the time, you had to go through customer service to get a refund without a return). It took four additional attempts before they were able to actually keep the automated system from issuing additional charges.
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