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Trading Time for Money

nicolasbouliane.com

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Re: Trading Time for Money

#41

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

drevil-v2 wrote: post #38
keiferski wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

You are still better off working. You will still get ubi

Re: Trading Time for Money

#42

Post by nicbou »

tempestn wrote: post #21

Looking at net income makes sense, but when it gets into expenses I'm not sure I follow. The idea behind outsourcing is that you can spend additional hours doing paid work. You can't look at your fixed expenses in terms of a fixed amount of each hour's wage if you're increasing the number of hours worked. Of course, it also assumes that people can choose exactly how many hours they work at their regular hourly rate,…

> The idea behind outsourcing is that you can spend additional hours doing paid work

There's a whole section of the article that argues that this is not possible. You can't scale your income up and down on a whim.

> Of course, it also assumes that people can choose exactly how many hours they work at their regular hourly rate, which isn't usually the case, but that's a separate quibble.

It doesn't. There's a whole section just about it. Have you read the whole post?

> You can't look at your fixed expenses in terms of a fixed amount of each hour's wage if you're increasing the number of hours worked.

There isn't a linear relationship between your gross income and your disposable income, but that doesn't invalidate the calculation.

You could say the same about health insurance and income tax. The former is capped (in Germany) to a certain amount, so it becomes a fixed expense past 56250€ per year. The latter is a progressive tax, so it doesn't grow linearly with your income.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#43

Post by nicbou »

mft_ wrote: post #37
nicbou wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why my dad pays someone else to do it, but rebuilds engines in his garage. I only do motorcycle oil changes, but those are easy.

Fair additional point about having to spend time/mental energy on dealing with the oil disposal. Not a criticism, though - I'm very much in the same 'place' as you - trying to find a better balance of what to do myself vs. outsource... and I fear I often get the balance wrong, on the side of not outsourcing enough. Case in point: I recently changed my GF's car wheels, over to the winter wheel/tyre set. Ahead of time,…

On the other hand, it gets easier after the first time, and you can do it where and when you choose to.

I prefer to do some repairs myself, because I don't like waiting for my mechanic. Replacing the brake pads took less time than driving to the mechanic and returning home with public transit. Hell, I spent more time in their waiting room than changing my oil.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#44

Post by dmantis »

As mostly said in the article, the first and biggest expense is taxes. However, taxes amount heavily depends on location you live and possible tax optimisations you can use in your position.

For example it may vary in 10x+ times between entrepreneur/nomad in low tax jurisdiction and hired worker in high-tax jurisdiction. Maybe it's smarter to choose country (state in US case) with lowest taxes/highest return than suffering from 30%+ cut.

I agree with the author about skills in general, but not every thing we do apart from the job bring us joy and satisfaction. Sometimes it's more convenient to just pay for the work.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#45

Post by drevil-v2 »

keiferski wrote: post #40
drevil-v2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

The whole concept of UBI presupposes that most jobs are fundamentally unnecessary / will be automated away by robots. Your concerns are covered in pretty much every article on the topic and I can’t really address them all in a HN comment.

Ok well that is science fiction at the moment. The way you are talking about it and sections of the internet talk about it, like it just around the corner.

Alright fine, in the world where we have infinite energy and resources yeah sure everyone can go off and do whatever the hell they want.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#46

Post by drevil-v2 »

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #41
drevil-v2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

You are still better off working. You will still get ubi

Haha why not just increase the threshold at which you get taxed? Same end result except no one gets money for doing nothing. Those on low incomes get to keep all their earnings.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#47

Post by lukeschlather »

drevil-v2 wrote: post #38
keiferski wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

They didn't say "leisure" they said "fundamentally important activities." Activities that are currently, for the most part, not compensated. Examples include all sorts of things involving childcare or education. Stuff which has almost incalculable value to society but the purchaser and the beneficiary are two different people, if there is any money changing hands at all.

Somewhere out there there are hundreds of thousands of people who could be force-multipliers working as mentors to students. Instead they're working for $20/hour doing rote work that has only marginal or even negative utility.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#49

Post by forgotmypw17 »

valvar wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less f…

Time and money are hardly the same thing. One can easily be stripped away from you in any number of schemes, the other is always with you for as long as you live.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#50

Post by drevil-v2 »

lukeschlather wrote: post #47
drevil-v2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

They didn't say "leisure" they said "fundamentally important activities." Activities that are currently, for the most part, not compensated. Examples include all sorts of things involving childcare or education. Stuff which has almost incalculable value to society but the purchaser and the beneficiary are two different people, if there is any money changing hands at all. Somewhere out there there are hundreds of thou…

That’s a lot of hand waving. Being a worthy mentor to students is an admirable life’s calling for sure but there is no reason to leap to the conclusion that are hundreds of thousands of people who would be perfect for this if only they weren’t flipping burgers at McDonald’s or manning the toll booth.
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