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Trading Time for Money

nicolasbouliane.com

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Re: Trading Time for Money

#31

Post by [deleted] »

thestepafter wrote: post #22
simonbarker87 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extreme savings/retire early website/guy (can’t remember the name and googling is failing me) essentially uses this for working out how early you can retire by focussing on the percentage of your take home that can be saved/invested rather than out right figures. It’s the thing we (my wife and I) focus on, the percentage left over as discretionary money to be saved, invested or spent as we see fit that matters th…

Do you mean this guy? https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

[deleted]

Re: Trading Time for Money

#32

Post by wanderingstan »

Thorentis wrote: post #8

> By comparison, my grocery bill is 5€ a day. Do you live on rice and beans? That sounds like you're trading enjoyment for money. We (2 adults) spend about US$150 a week on groceries, and still eat out about once a week. Those groceries include three meals a day, with the leftovers of the night before being taken for lunch the next day. How on earth do people eat healthily and only spend $5 a day?

The author lives in Germany, where food is surprisingly inexpensive even at good quality.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#33

Post by valvar »

keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money

I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less fungible. And different people with different circumstances are able to expedite their actions with varying efficiency. Time is a more fundamental economic concept than money.

UBI is essentially just socialist redistribution policy in a different guise, and all it will do is obscure (but of course not erase) existing incentive structures.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#34

Post by maccard »

Thorentis wrote: post #8

> By comparison, my grocery bill is 5€ a day. Do you live on rice and beans? That sounds like you're trading enjoyment for money. We (2 adults) spend about US$150 a week on groceries, and still eat out about once a week. Those groceries include three meals a day, with the leftovers of the night before being taken for lunch the next day. How on earth do people eat healthily and only spend $5 a day?

My experience of grocery shopping in the US and europe is that the US is substantially more expensive, and €5 per day is probably equivalent in purchasing power to $10-12 per day which is definitely more doable. $150 is more than the average family of 4's shopping bill in the UK

Re: Trading Time for Money

#35

Post by keiferski »

valvar wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less f…

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#36

Post by toiletfuneral »

valvar wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #18

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less f…

[dead]

Re: Trading Time for Money

#37

Post by mft_ »

nicbou wrote: post #25
xupybd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too, I've tried explaining this to people. The hard part of an oil change is getting to the oil filter. It's way easier in a pit. You also have to deal with oil disposal and potential spills in the driveway. It makes so much sense to pay someone who is setup to do this. There are specialist oil changers in my town. I drive in an 30 mins later I drive out. Paying about 150% of what it would cost me to do it.

That's why my dad pays someone else to do it, but rebuilds engines in his garage. I only do motorcycle oil changes, but those are easy.

Fair additional point about having to spend time/mental energy on dealing with the oil disposal.

Not a criticism, though - I'm very much in the same 'place' as you - trying to find a better balance of what to do myself vs. outsource... and I fear I often get the balance wrong, on the side of not outsourcing enough.

Case in point: I recently changed my GF's car wheels, over to the winter wheel/tyre set. Ahead of time, it's an easy calculation: a few minutes per wheel (I've got good tools including an impact wrench already) saves her a decent amount of money, plus the time to/from/waiting at the garage. But it's easy to underestimate: it may well be 10 minutes-ish per wheel, but this ignores the time spent wrestling the 8 wheels from/to their storage space, plus the relative hassle of having to have somewhere to store them at home. I should have probably not interfered: she'd not really have missed the money, and I could have spent that hour+ doing something more fulfilling (maybe).

Re: Trading Time for Money

#38

Post by drevil-v2 »

keiferski wrote: post #35
valvar wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less f…

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive?

What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

Re: Trading Time for Money

#39

Post by NiceWayToDoIT »

devtosales wrote: post #17
NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #12

For a long time I had an idea that "A real salary is what is left after expenses" so if you earn monthly £2000 but your expenses are £1500 then £500 is your salary. If you earn £1500 but your expenses are £500 effectively you earn £1000 month or more than those that are paid more. So, solution is to earn more or learn how to live more frugal? Of course it is not possible to reduce some expenses, and some expenses are…

Can’t trade joy for a house or clothes for the kids. ... or 5 star holidays along the Mediterranean.

For the first one I agree having kids is obligation and duty one must fulfill, (I am single). For the second one, different folks different strokes, I traveled the world and I have not found that 5 stars holidays will give me more joy than random traveling on tight budget. As I enjoy nature and free time - so, super expensive wine, cars or fancy hotels does not mean much to me. Again, I can understand that for some people they do, although I do not know why, but I respect that...

Re: Trading Time for Money

#40

Post by keiferski »

drevil-v2 wrote: post #38
keiferski wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

The whole concept of UBI presupposes that most jobs are fundamentally unnecessary / will be automated away by robots. Your concerns are covered in pretty much every article on the topic and I can’t really address them all in a HN comment.
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