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Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

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Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#21

Post by eganist »

wolco2 wrote: post #20
irrational wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if the choice is removing the dams and moving to more polluting energy forms, or letting the fish go extinct, I think letting the fish go extinct is the best choice at this time. Maybe we freeze their fertilized eggs and reintroduce them at some point in the future when climate change has been reversed.

You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. I would rather you pay more and pay the full costs of your electrical use. Use solar, wind or invest in a nuclear plant if removing carbon is imported. Causing extinction in the name of climate change when really it's about cheaper prices…

> You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will.

Interesting. Do you have a source for this?

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#22

Post by wolco2 »

coryrc wrote: post #17
ficklepickle wrote: post #2

It's nice and all, but it is unlikely to lead to a returning salmon population. Even if the spawn make it through the dams, they won't be able to come back when they reach spawning age. They need to invest tons of money in salmon ladders and naturalization, for example, like we are doing in BC. That would be quite the project for the Grand Coulee dam, as I remember it being quite large. Hopefully this is the first st…

We don't need to make such a large investment. I, for one, am satisfied with the ecology today and would rather have lower electricity rates and get people into electric cars and off gas heat.

Start investing in nuclear and you can have both.

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#23

Post by bb88 »

amscanne wrote: post #10
burtonator wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If native populations are going to come back and be sustainable we have to tear down the damns. I realize that causes other political issues but that's the only way we're going to have native populations. I'm an avid fisherman and really LOVE fish. They're amazing animals. Fisherman have a connection to nature that just can't be appreciated unless you have spent significant time on the water. Fish are SMART, they're…

Fish are amazing, but do you really think they are SMART? In my experience, fish are incredibly stupid and wholly reliant on instinct. I suppose instincts can seem like intelligence sometimes, but if put into the wrong situation, fish will make the same mistake over and over and over again.

By that standard the monarch butterfly is stupid too. That said they are smart enough to follow only a portion of their full migratory route which takes 4 generations to complete.

Squirrels remember where they bury their nuts. Octopuses can solve puzzles.

So what about fish? Salmon remember where they were spawned before they head out to the ocean, and come back to the exact same pool to spawn before dying.

https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/13/mystery-solve...

So sure, they're not "SMART" but there is a lot of "intelligence" they have acquired over many generations of evolutionary cycles.

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#24

Post by bb88 »

irrational wrote: post #18
burtonator wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If native populations are going to come back and be sustainable we have to tear down the damns. I realize that causes other political issues but that's the only way we're going to have native populations. I'm an avid fisherman and really LOVE fish. They're amazing animals. Fisherman have a connection to nature that just can't be appreciated unless you have spent significant time on the water. Fish are SMART, they're…

Honestly, if the choice is removing the dams and moving to more polluting energy forms, or letting the fish go extinct, I think letting the fish go extinct is the best choice at this time. Maybe we freeze their fertilized eggs and reintroduce them at some point in the future when climate change has been reversed.

Salmon are used as food sources for humans and for wildlife. The stronger the salmon are, the stronger the ecology of the PNW will be.

Not all dams that are blocking salmon runs in the PNW are used for hydro power, or for flood control for that matter.

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#26

Post by margalabargala »

wolco2 wrote: post #20
irrational wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if the choice is removing the dams and moving to more polluting energy forms, or letting the fish go extinct, I think letting the fish go extinct is the best choice at this time. Maybe we freeze their fertilized eggs and reintroduce them at some point in the future when climate change has been reversed.

You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. I would rather you pay more and pay the full costs of your electrical use. Use solar, wind or invest in a nuclear plant if removing carbon is imported. Causing extinction in the name of climate change when really it's about cheaper prices…

> You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today.

No, I've done a fair amount of research into the historical climate of the PNW and I've never heard that before! Do you have any journal articles so I can read more about it?

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#27

Post by xenocyon »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #9
killjoywashere wrote: post #5

Readers may also find this review of methods of building salmon-friendly dams interesting: https://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/pdf-content/mf...

We must learn to live with hydro power and dams. It’s such an incredible and clean source of energy. It’s low maintenance and has a high duty cycle, with only nuclear being a more consistent. Dams are also how many parts of the US irrigate crops for our food.

There are different kinds of hydropower. At the risk of oversimplifying, "big" hydro (such as conventional dams) inflicts massive environmental damage, while "little" hydro doesn't.

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#28

Post by bombela »

bb88 wrote: post #23
amscanne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fish are amazing, but do you really think they are SMART? In my experience, fish are incredibly stupid and wholly reliant on instinct. I suppose instincts can seem like intelligence sometimes, but if put into the wrong situation, fish will make the same mistake over and over and over again.

By that standard the monarch butterfly is stupid too. That said they are smart enough to follow only a portion of their full migratory route which takes 4 generations to complete. Squirrels remember where they bury their nuts. Octopuses can solve puzzles. So what about fish? Salmon remember where they were spawned before they head out to the ocean, and come back to the exact same pool to spawn before dying. https://b…

Squirrel do not remember much though. They fill the ground with nuts. Then they dig the ground seemingly at random. Most of theis caches are forgotten. Which often leads to nuts trees sprouting all over the place during spring.

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#29

Post by Herodotus38 »

vba wrote: post #11
evmar wrote: post #3

I grew up in a small town in the PNW that has a yearly salmon festival, and it wasn't until a post from HN[1] that I learned/realized that the whole system of "fish hatcheries" that my town celebrated is kind of a horrible bandaid over the ecological disaster we perpetrated. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21298472 , definitely worth a read if you care about salmon

Leavenworth? Also cool work history/projects from your website

I know Issaquah has 'Salmon Days'

Re: Salmon spawning in the upper Columbia River, first in 80 years

#30

Post by rhodozelia »

burtonator wrote: post #7
ficklepickle wrote: post #2

It's nice and all, but it is unlikely to lead to a returning salmon population. Even if the spawn make it through the dams, they won't be able to come back when they reach spawning age. They need to invest tons of money in salmon ladders and naturalization, for example, like we are doing in BC. That would be quite the project for the Grand Coulee dam, as I remember it being quite large. Hopefully this is the first st…

If native populations are going to come back and be sustainable we have to tear down the damns. I realize that causes other political issues but that's the only way we're going to have native populations. I'm an avid fisherman and really LOVE fish. They're amazing animals. Fisherman have a connection to nature that just can't be appreciated unless you have spent significant time on the water. Fish are SMART, they're…

>“We have to tear down the dams”

Surely there must be another possible solution that more Closely mimics the river before the dams were built ?

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