Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#111

Post by SlateBlate » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:34 PM UTC

eastendguy wrote: post #80

atoav wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has some (immigrant) friends which try/tried to get a foothold in Germany usually the opposite is the norm: You can do everything by the book, be the perfect citizen and in the and you are thanked by daily racism and a bureaucratic maze. To have the strength to stay a good person through all of that is a big achievement. This is why I think showing as a society doing things the right way counts. This i…

I am curious what kind of problem had or have your friends? Usually it is quite straightforward to get citizenship in Germany. Have a job for 7 years and no criminal record, and you can apply. Source: The (formerly) foreign colleagues I know had no problem with the process.

I studied in Germany and then worked there for four years. They counted my years of study toward citizenship which was awesome. This depends on which region you were in though, some regions only counted 7 years after you started working full time.

This was years ago, so things may have changed now.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#112

Post by RobertoG » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:37 PM UTC

5560675260 wrote: post #100

RobertoG wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two factors to this "fad": one is that USA for being the world superpower and through their media monopoly is always in the spotlight. The second is that USA spend too much time saying how wonderful they are (that if you look to history with a little objectivity is not so wonderful). Reaction to this is almost inevitable. I would like to present a trivial recent example: as you know, USA retired fro…

> in general, is not doing so much like other nations despite being the worst in per capita terms. Do you have sources to back any part of this statement? It would be surprising to see US doing less and being worth that, for example, Germany and its coal or China and its industrial complex. Otherwise it seems to be another example of "blatantly false anti-US comments like this get voted up without any data to back th…

Actually I have to correct that because the USA is not the worst per capita (my apologies), but it's up there with the top worst (Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia and a bunch of smaller countries) and, of course, more important because of the size of its population (1).

It seems that what it's in dispute is the "not doing so much like other nations". I would say there are two ways to look at it: pledges and historical data.

I don't think is necessary to demonstrate that the USA current pledges are below the Paris agreement countries.

For historical I just will take 2019 that was a specially good year for USA CO2 reductions.

from https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-leads-world-reducing-co...

>>"It’s true that, according to the IEA’s February 2020 report, the U.S. achieved a greater absolute reduction in CO2 emissions than any other country, in 2019. However, claims that the U.S. therefore “led the entire world” or was a “global leader” in CO2 emissions were belied by the fact that other countries (including Germany, Japan, and likely others) achieved a superior rate of reduction in CO2 emissions. Although not a country, the European Union achieved both a larger absolute reduction and a greater rate of reduction in CO2 emissions than the US did. "

(1) - https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by...

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#113

Post by Veen » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:37 PM UTC

gentaro wrote: post #104

synecdoche wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A glass is seen as either half full or half empty. All that can be perceived as racist is not necessarily so. There could be a number of reasons for unpleasant outcomes, none more likely than the other.

Terrible oversimplification. It's extremely difficult to determine what negative action is motivated by racism and which isn't. If you're not generally at risk of experiencing racism (ie. you are of the majority ethnic group), of course it is easy to rule out. It's hardly a glass half empty/half full type of problem.

I think you've interpreted your parent post a little harshly.

These statements from your comment and the parent comment to seem to mean essentially the same thing.

> All that can be perceived as racist is not necessarily so

> It's extremely difficult to determine what negative action is motivated by racism and which isn't

The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half full/empty" metaphor expresses that difference quite well.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#114

Post by touisteur » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:37 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #91

Jacqued wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not five years to citizenship. After five years you get to apply. Then it takes about 4 years of administrative hell (with some traps that can get you back to square one) to get there. No one who is at all familiar with the French immigration system would tell you that it's "lax". It's generally a nightmare to navigate and it feels like it's designed to deter all but the most determined immigrants. Source: perso…

Anecdata, but a Cuban friend of ours has a French wife. Able to apply after 5 years and more or less got his French passport immediately after handing in the necessary documents and passing interviews and language tests. All in the same year he applied. Maybe it's different because of marriage, no idea. When you are not in France, the hardest part is to find someone to administer the necessary language test. Last tim…

Yes it's different because of marriage. It's 10 years of presence in France, that you can prove. Through marriage it's shorter, but you get the special 'white marriage' procedure to make sure you're not in it for the citizenship. Prove that you live and have been living together, that you've been a couple for some time... Didn't like this process at all.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#115

Post by gentaro » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:49 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #113

gentaro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible oversimplification. It's extremely difficult to determine what negative action is motivated by racism and which isn't. If you're not generally at risk of experiencing racism (ie. you are of the majority ethnic group), of course it is easy to rule out. It's hardly a glass half empty/half full type of problem.

I think you've interpreted your parent post a little harshly. These statements from your comment and the parent comment to seem to mean essentially the same thing. > All that can be perceived as racist is not necessarily so > It's extremely difficult to determine what negative action is motivated by racism and which isn't The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half…

> The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half full/empty" metaphor expresses that difference quite well.

I addressed this quite clearly:

If you're not generally at risk of experiencing racism (ie. you are of the majority ethnic group), of course it is easy to rule out. It's hardly a glass half empty/half full type of problem.

A glass half empty/half full metaphor implies that the perception is simply down to personal optimism, which as I said, is clearly a gross oversimplification.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#116

Post by touisteur » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #52

HeavenFox wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...whereas three years of service in French Foreign Legion allows you to apply for citizenship, or immediately after you are wounded in battle ("French by spilled blood")

Serving in the Foreign Legion is not like 'being in the military' in other places...

Indeed no... Légion étrangère is very often front-line, opex, desert, jungle... A very special and strange military corps that meddled with politics in the 1960s... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers_putsch_of_1961 And nowadays they select at the entrance.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#117

Post by Veen » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

gentaro wrote: post #115

Veen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've interpreted your parent post a little harshly. These statements from your comment and the parent comment to seem to mean essentially the same thing. > All that can be perceived as racist is not necessarily so > It's extremely difficult to determine what negative action is motivated by racism and which isn't The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half…

> The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half full/empty" metaphor expresses that difference quite well. I addressed this quite clearly: If you're not generally at risk of experiencing racism (ie. you are of the majority ethnic group), of course it is easy to rule out. It's hardly a glass half empty/half full type of problem. A glass half empty/half full metaphor i…

I am not questioning the clarity of your expression, but your narrow interpretation of the metaphor. It does not imply that judgements about racism are purely a matter of optimism or pessimism. It already incorporates the fact a person's influences cause them to make those judgements.

Of course someone who is at risk of experiencing racism is more likely to judge an act to be racist, but that doesn't make them right. In fact, they may be more likely to attribute innocent acts to racism, just as someone who rarely experiences racism is likely to make the opposite judgement more often than is justified.

My point is that we are arguing about something that was already expressed by the parent under what I believe to be a more generous interpretation of their use of that metaphor.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#118

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

touisteur wrote: post #114

hef19898 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but a Cuban friend of ours has a French wife. Able to apply after 5 years and more or less got his French passport immediately after handing in the necessary documents and passing interviews and language tests. All in the same year he applied. Maybe it's different because of marriage, no idea. When you are not in France, the hardest part is to find someone to administer the necessary language test. Last tim…

Yes it's different because of marriage. It's 10 years of presence in France, that you can prove. Through marriage it's shorter, but you get the special 'white marriage' procedure to make sure you're not in it for the citizenship. Prove that you live and have been living together, that you've been a couple for some time... Didn't like this process at all.

Then I have something to look forward to, haven't I? Living abroad, outside of France, may change things again. Maybe next year, but I keep telling this myself for 3 years now. Hopefully kids and house will make that white marriage thing easier!

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#119

Post by gentaro » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #117

gentaro wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference is how likely you are to assume possible racism is actual racism. The "glass half full/empty" metaphor expresses that difference quite well. I addressed this quite clearly: If you're not generally at risk of experiencing racism (ie. you are of the majority ethnic group), of course it is easy to rule out. It's hardly a glass half empty/half full type of problem. A glass half empty/half full metaphor i…

I am not questioning the clarity of your expression, but your narrow interpretation of the metaphor. It does not imply that judgements about racism are purely a matter of optimism or pessimism. It already incorporates the fact a person's influences cause them to make those judgements. Of course someone who is at risk of experiencing racism is more likely to judge an act to be racist, but that doesn't make them right.…

This conversation really isn't productive.

Re: Covid: France rewards frontline immigrant workers with citizenship

#120

Post by Veen » Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

gentaro wrote: post #119

Veen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not questioning the clarity of your expression, but your narrow interpretation of the metaphor. It does not imply that judgements about racism are purely a matter of optimism or pessimism. It already incorporates the fact a person's influences cause them to make those judgements. Of course someone who is at risk of experiencing racism is more likely to judge an act to be racist, but that doesn't make them right.…

This conversation really isn't productive.

Agreed.