Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

smithsonianmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#31

Post by yostrovs »

huhtenberg wrote: post #23
preciz wrote: post #7

“This is a clear message to those who, for the benefit and selfish pleasure of a few, rob us of our common heritage and erase entire swaths of our history.” There should be a better process to legally report the items or exchange them for market value so this wouldn't happen in the first place?

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

How is it destructive if before the treasure hunter there was no treasure and now there is one? Things underground degrade with time so finding them helps to preserve them.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#32

Post by flagrant »

yostrovs wrote: post #27
jeltz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#33

Post by flagrant »

jansan wrote: post #28
samizdis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has similar laws, requiring people who find things defined under the Treasure Act 1996 (except in Scotland) as treasure to report their find to a coroner within 14 days. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 Finders have to offer the treasure for sale to a museum/similar at a price determined by an independent panel. The UK also has broader, older rules governing "treasure trove", with slight re…

This makes a lot of sense. These artefacts usually disappear in a museum's basement and nobody actually gives a shit, but officials act as if they have great value. If the museums actually have to shill out some money, it becomes quite clear which artefacts actually do have value and which don't.

This is honestly an abhorrent way to think about archaeological finds. You do not have to ascribe a monetary value to everything you see and our history should not be bought and sold as a commodity.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#34

Post by TeMPOraL »

yostrovs wrote: post #27
jeltz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

The object itself is usually only as interesting as the area in which it was found - it's the ground and things that surround it that lets archeologists establish the age, meaning and significance of an artifact. Just digging something up destroys that information.

(Also I suspect such artifacts will degrade much faster if unearthed and improperly handled than they would if left in the ground.)

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#35

Post by nsajko »

yostrovs wrote: post #27
jeltz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

Why do you think the artifacts will degrade worse if left where they were for a long time already, than if dug up and stored by some amateur?

And, more importantly, the scientific value is mostly lost when removing the artifact from its context.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#36

Post by Daniel_sk »

Danieru wrote: post #2

> As Daniel Boffey notes for the Guardian, using a metal detector for anything other than scientific research is outlawed in France. Oh wow, there must be a big story behind this law. How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? The article says he "stole these from sites", is that implying he went to active dig sites or public attractions? There is so much to unpack here. Are ground penetrating rada…

Banned to use for searching artifacts - this is a common ban across EU countries. It's the same in Slovakia. You can buy a metal detector, but it's illegal to use it for this purpose.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#37

Post by nsajko »

jansan wrote: post #30
huhtenberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

It does not have to be destructive, and a swarm of amateurs could achieve much more than those lazy ass ivory tower archaeologists if a good framework of rules existed.

The goal of science is to obtain knowledge and, in this case, learn more about the past and someone's heritage; not to loot.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#38

Post by TeMPOraL »

jansan wrote: post #30
huhtenberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

It does not have to be destructive, and a swarm of amateurs could achieve much more than those lazy ass ivory tower archaeologists if a good framework of rules existed.

Not really. Archeological digs aren't just scooping dirt and sifting out objects. It's a careful process that pays as much attention to the ground being dug as it does to individual items, because surroundings provide clues about the object's provenance. A "swarm of amateurs" with profit motive will not care about any of that.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#39

Post by skwirl »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

This is an interesting topic because it's not something I would have thought about as an American. You aren't likely to find an artifact of much archeological value in much of the United States using a metal detector. Maybe if you could we would take the same stance as Europe on the issue.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#40

Post by claudeganon »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #12

Am I understanding this correctly that the place he “looted” from was the ground? As in he found and dug up coins? And this is so heinous an action that metal detectors are banned?

Prior to some big court cases and changes to repatriation law in the 80s and 90s, the mafia was heavily involved with looting archaeological heritage in places like Italy. Criminals would dig them up and move them through Swiss freeports using false provenance records and auction them off to museums and private collectors in other countries. This caused irreparable damage to our understanding of these objects history and context.

https://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136252401/chasing-aphrodite-a...

It’s not often discussed, but much of what you can see of Greco-Roman artifacts in the permanent collections of American museums, for example, was likely to have been looted.

Post reply on HN