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Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

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Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#171
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Ripple is not Vaporware. I work for an MTO and we use ripple XCurrent product. XRP enables MTOs to send / receive without having to use USD as an intermediary currency. This reduces costs on money transfer and also enables money transfer even when US banks are on holiday. So I can say there is real value in the network Ripple is building and also XRP itself being used as the tool for cross border remittance.…

Why not use ether/smart contracts? Seems way better than ripple for this use case.

Because who do you contact for support when something goes wrong?

The problem cryptocurrency industry doesn't understand is when you work in finance you are heavily regulated. You cannot just work with "decentralized" systems and call it a day. Every action you do is answerable, everything is questioned and scrutinized.

Having someone like Ripple and XCurrent as an intermediate as a regulated company helps solve a lot of problems. Since Ripple itself is regulated it's easy to justify to regulators. Ripple is also answerable when transactions delay happens.

For Etherereum / Smartcontracts who do you contact for support when transactions SLAs aren't being met?

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Credit card Payment processing amounts to a 3% tax on a majority of transactions Only in America. Most other countries have this under control. > In general, crypto technology is valuable for it's ability to replace capricious monopolies with distributed implementations built on federated protocols run like a constitutional democracy. No, in general crypto technology is valuable because it can avoid laws created by…

Most other countries? Where do you get that information from? Also maybe it’ll be made illegal in some countries, but if others work as fertile grounds for crypto, they will leak into all others eventually. Specially if their advantages are too good to pass.

Europe has cap of 0.3%, Australia is 0.5% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchange_fee#European_Union

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I've never understood about XRP and Ripple is that originally XRP was meant to only be used for paying for transactions and the ledger was meant to track IOUs between people denominated in some other "real" currency. They had videos floating around explaining the concept. In fact, they were handing out XRP for free to bootstrap the network of users [0] (that post says 1000 XRP, originally it was 30,000 XRP whe…

Ripple (old-school Ripple, not XRP) doesn't need any clearing house or federation. It's just you, me, and the hops along the way interacting long enough to facilitate the transaction.

My point is that how is that not a hawala system, just facilitated by a distributed ledger instead of phone calls? If it is, why isn't illegal just like those other systems?

The similarity here I thought was the trading of IOUs -- this seems to be very similar to what hawala is/was.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ripple (old-school Ripple, not XRP) doesn't need any clearing house or federation. It's just you, me, and the hops along the way interacting long enough to facilitate the transaction.

My point is that how is that not a hawala system, just facilitated by a distributed ledger instead of phone calls? If it is, why isn't illegal just like those other systems? The similarity here I thought was the trading of IOUs -- this seems to be very similar to what hawala is/was.

There is no middle man facilitating ripple. (Well, ideally. RipplePay was centralized. But it didn’t need to be.)

Also, hawala is legal in most jurisdictions I believe.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that how is that not a hawala system, just facilitated by a distributed ledger instead of phone calls? If it is, why isn't illegal just like those other systems? The similarity here I thought was the trading of IOUs -- this seems to be very similar to what hawala is/was.

There is no middle man facilitating ripple. (Well, ideally. RipplePay was centralized. But it didn’t need to be.) Also, hawala is legal in most jurisdictions I believe.

Thanks, I think this might be the big differentiator -- the existence of middlemen is probably the large difference here, but it feels like at some point you're definitely going to need someone to keep track of value across IOUs somehow and at the very least who is trust worthy.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#176
post #3

Won’t have an impact on the broader crypto market, but it will signal that the US is diehard anti-crypto. So many companies have already moved offshore, anyone trying to play in the US should get out ASAP. Who is the SEC protecting? Anyone who has bought XRP doesn’t give a shit.

> but it will signal that the US is diehard anti-crypto. From the article: SEC officials have declared Bitcoin and Ether to be currencies, as they are decentralized in their management, but have left the door open for others to qualify as securities, especially at the time of their issuance. So not really. The US needs to evolve to the new world.

Do you have an authoritative source for BTC and ETH being considered currencies? I think the article has it wrong. IRS treats all cryptocurrencies as property. SEC has only said they are not securities. That does not imply they are currencies.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#177
post #39

What I've never understood about XRP and Ripple is that originally XRP was meant to only be used for paying for transactions and the ledger was meant to track IOUs between people denominated in some other "real" currency. They had videos floating around explaining the concept. In fact, they were handing out XRP for free to bootstrap the network of users [0] (that post says 1000 XRP, originally it was 30,000 XRP when…

I remember their original pitch sounding like it made a lot of sense. Fast, cheap, verifiable trading layer for IOUs that can then be settled externally. A lot like how many stock exchanges work. Ended up selling any XRP I had two years ago when things went nuts. Now it looks like people are re-building that whole concept elsewhere and Ripple is becoming irrelevant.

The ripple name was bought to exploit the positive impressions people had of the idea and was slapped onto something entirely different and unrelated.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.msg1547843#ms...

Bitcoin's lightning is in many ways the spiritual successor to the original Ripple idea-- a pathfinding network between pairwise relationships, but instead of IOUs, the parties use smart contracts to twiddle funds around in bitcoin payment channels without having to take the updates to the public network.

This fixes the big security weakness of Ripple while preserving the positive scalability properties. Unfortunately it also requires more complexity and limits flexibility somewhat.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most other countries? Where do you get that information from? Also maybe it’ll be made illegal in some countries, but if others work as fertile grounds for crypto, they will leak into all others eventually. Specially if their advantages are too good to pass.

Europe has cap of 0.3%, Australia is 0.5% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchange_fee#European_Union

I would hardly call Europe and Australia most other countries.

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#179
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth highlighting that there are distributed databases that meet all those criteria except "incorruptibility in terms of maximum supply". You're right to point out that there are a few very specific use cases that a distributed blockchain with multiple independently-owned verification nodes will satisfy and other more performant databases will not. Whether that makes them "valuable" like gold is left as an exer…

Distributed is not the same as decentralized. A decentralized system is a distributed system that still works _when nodes are owned by multiple different (even competing/malicious) parties_.

yes, yes, I said that already: "...multiple independently-owned verification nodes..."

Re: Cryptocurrency company Ripple says SEC lawsuit is imminent

#180
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t remember if I had ever talked to Ryan, but I remember talking to people about this in forums and in person at Stanford and Cal in 2007. By 2005, the financial system was showing signs it was headed toward a point of no return because there was no revenue basis to justify the debt leverage, and the only way out was either extreme dollar scarcity, or previously unthinkable monetary base injections. Either way,…

> Most ripple believers thought that central currency was basically antithetical, although one based on unskilled labor hours might be acceptable as fallback. This stuff always sounded like it came from people who've never hired. Unskilled labor is not all equal. > Satoshi’s concept was to use hashcash to both secure the ledger and issue currency. This was brilliant but antithetical to the no-currency concept, and re…

The unskilled labor concept was not often discussed in forums or in most of my interactions at Stanford, but when I went to Cal, I realized that the labor value theory foundations were a lot more important to the early supporters than I had thought. I learned about the origins of the movement from a UW student visiting Cal. Somebody may have given a talk there and it caught on.

Smart contracts seemed to me to be another sticking point that nearly killed the whole idea. Most people were looking for a better system of simple exchange, and smart contracts made that difficult. Now transactions became difficult to understand and fraught with error. Running a node meant trusting a fairly large code base you downloaded from an insecure Internet forum, and then let strangers run code on that. Before Script came into it, anybody could look at a shell script implementation and understand what was going on with all trusted components. For a long time it looked like Bitcoin would never release, and vulnerabilities in the early versions made everybody realize that they weren’t trusting a mathematical concept; they were trusting software written by some guy on the internet. Then there was the debate inside the smart contracts community about the halting problem and how it could be used to attack the network. This is probably practically solved with transaction costs alone, but I think it was a practical software engineering compromise do scripting without looping and backward jump instructions because they made the software much more complex and vulnerable to attack. Same with the block size, maybe even block time. This was all an experiment. By the time Vitalik started pushing for improvements, the Satoshi compromises had become canon. I spoke to him and he seemed to be in agreement with upgrading the protocol through miner consensus, but, by that point, an industry of rather unsophisticated mining operations had emerged, and they were not interested in changing anything. Briefly I lived with one of the biggest miners in the world, and he would ask questions and I would explain to him how transactions work etc. So Vitalik gave up on on-chain scripting and proposed an off-chain scripting scripting layer that would use a separate gas currency just for smart contracts with settlement on the Bitcoin blockchain. This was very important to distinguish itself from the rest of the already-defunct altcoins. But practically, I don’t know how it was supposed to happen. We have this now, but it’s been a long road. Is there any reason that Bitcoin doesn’t have Turing completeness, faster blocks, oracles, etc? Not really; but a fork would have been risk without reward, whereas a new token offers the ability to premine and speculate. One of the biggest learnings was how much speculation would dominate over anything non-financial, and how hard it would be to modify the Bitcoin experiment. Still, the use cases for smart contracts are very few, and Turing completeness itself is basically unnecessary. But to more directly address the point, Bitcoin has transaction fees already, and it would be simple to assume that a similar consensus on gas price would emerge and doesn’t need to be part of the protocol. To go further, the gas price itself doesn’t solve the problem of computational complexity because only the miner that wins the block actually gets the reward, while all others downstream are expected to verify it, but they have no incentive to do so, and frankly, today, most don’t. As an example, almost nobody boots up an eth node with verification from origin, and they would be greatly in the minority if they corrected a bug. Eth nodes boot to a trusted state handed to them. Most of the early eth discussions I was involved with implied doing this in snarks or some other provable computation in the initial discussions, but that never made it into eth. So no; that problem was never solved, although we are getting closer.

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