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Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

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Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#211

Post by madmulita »

exabrial wrote: post #194
csixty4 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take it back even further: We started out on mainframes. Then things moved to the desktop, with some centralized functionality on servers (shared drives, batch jobs). The processing moved to centralized web servers via the web, SAAS, and the cloud. Then more moved into the client through React & similar. And now things are moving back to the server. Tick. Tock. These changes are not just arbitrary whims of fashio…

Virtual machines, containers, very similar to partitions and spaces on mainframes as well.

And serverless is an anemic CICS executing non-transactions.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#213

Post by Hypergraphe »

sourc3 wrote: post #120

This is so exciting to see, especially for older folk like me. Almost 20 years ago, one of my professors told us before graduation that hot tech is mostly about the idea pendulum swinging back and forth. I immediately chalked it up to 65+ above white wise men snobbery. However, this is exactly that. We started with static pages, then came Ajax and Asp.net and the open source variants, then we went full SPA, now we ar…

I think the same.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#214

Post by rorykoehler »

mfer wrote: post #153
sourc3 wrote: post #120

This is so exciting to see, especially for older folk like me. Almost 20 years ago, one of my professors told us before graduation that hot tech is mostly about the idea pendulum swinging back and forth. I immediately chalked it up to 65+ above white wise men snobbery. However, this is exactly that. We started with static pages, then came Ajax and Asp.net and the open source variants, then we went full SPA, now we ar…

It's not just that things are too complicated... the JS being sent to browsers is large and a lot of work. That requires more bandwidth, processing, and power usage on client devices. This eats phone, tablet, and laptop batteries.

And state is not reflective of reality in the database which is a terrible idea for most apps

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#215

Post by grishka »

mmastrac wrote: post #4

What's old is new again. I recall ASP.NET had some interesting tech around this in the 2000s where it could dynamically update parts of the page. If I recall correctly, this made use of that new technology of the time called "XMLHttpRequest" (/s) which pretty much jump-started web 2.0.

Is this that web framework from Microsoft that hid the transaction-orientedness of HTTP from you by letting you set server-side click listeners on buttons and generated all the code needed to glue it all together? At the time, I didn't feel good about it because it abstracted away too much, and required Windows on the server. Little did I know about all the ways people would start abusing JS in 10 years.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#216

Post by dasloop »

sourc3 wrote: post #120

This is so exciting to see, especially for older folk like me. Almost 20 years ago, one of my professors told us before graduation that hot tech is mostly about the idea pendulum swinging back and forth. I immediately chalked it up to 65+ above white wise men snobbery. However, this is exactly that. We started with static pages, then came Ajax and Asp.net and the open source variants, then we went full SPA, now we ar…

Every time the pendulum returns, it returns profoundly changed. And it returns because the changes makes the coming back possible.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#217

Post by echelon »

dasloop wrote: post #216
sourc3 wrote: post #120

This is so exciting to see, especially for older folk like me. Almost 20 years ago, one of my professors told us before graduation that hot tech is mostly about the idea pendulum swinging back and forth. I immediately chalked it up to 65+ above white wise men snobbery. However, this is exactly that. We started with static pages, then came Ajax and Asp.net and the open source variants, then we went full SPA, now we ar…

Every time the pendulum returns, it returns profoundly changed. And it returns because the changes makes the coming back possible.

So when and how does the p2p / distributed pendulum swing back? When do we stop using AWS mainframes for everything?

I sense that you're right about swings requiring change to older techniques. But I think there's also a component of being fed up with the direction things are currently facing.

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#218

Post by grumple »

This is a continuation of existing Rails ideas: "This is a conceptual continuation of what in the Rails world was first called RJS and then called SJR, but realized without any need for JavaScript. The benefits remain the same" [1]. So if this doesn't wow you, that's why; Rails already largely can do this, but you have to write some javascript yourself. This does seem simpler for the toy example. I'm curious as to how it works with nested templates, there are no examples for it that I noticed.

1. https://turbo.hotwire.dev/handbook/introduction

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#219

Post by mgkimsal »

edoceo wrote: post #131
axegon_ wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm talking about js as a whole. Standard library is crap, inconsistent, even the most basic of naming conventions are not followed anywhere. The fact that the standard library jumps between camel case, pascal case, snake case and unicase at random is a perfect example. The list of absurdities is beyond ridiculous[1]. [1] https://github.com/denysdovhan/wtfjs

Who on this thread was saying what's old is new? 100% of what you said has also been lobbed at PHP recently and I've heard similar complaint about PERL and MS-SQL (that I remember well) and I'm sure others (one of those Delphi product too)

What's been strange to me though is I've heard JS advocates lobbing those criticisms at PHP, making the case for, say, why 'Node is awesome, PHP sucks'. Conflating a framework vs a language, then pointing out PHP 'issues' that also exist in JS... there's generally little point in trying to engage/correct at that point (context: primarily conference hallway conversations and meetup groups back when those actually happened).

Re: Hotwire: HTML over the Wire

#220

Post by rorykoehler »

craftinator wrote: post #200
ChrisLTD wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preach! Websites don’t seem all that much better to me than they did 10 years ago [^fn], so what are we gaining with all these much more complex and fragile tools? [fn]: Arguably, the web is worse with chat bots, sticky headers, and modals constantly vying for your attention.

> Arguably, the web is worse with chat bots, sticky headers, and modals constantly vying for your attention. We can blame this on the MBA types. I've literally never heard a software engineer say "hey, let's make this pop-up after they've already been looking at the page for a minute!" or anything like it.

Engineers typically aren’t tasked with increasing revenue/engagement.
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