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Voat Is Shutting Down

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Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#571

Post by ballenf »

ashtonkem wrote: post #486
marvin wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the canonical meme of free speech, but there's a corollary that is becoming increasingly relevant. People who repeat what you just wrote usually seem to ignore it: If every arena where people actually meet is privately owned, and all of these places agree on what ideas are valid topics of discussion, the effect on society will largely be the same as if a state actor suppressed free speech. We're not quite the…

> This is the canonical meme of free speech That's a pretty dismissive way to say "jurisprudence". > If every arena where people actually meet is privately owned, and all of these places agree on what ideas are valid topics of discussion, the effect on society will largely be the same as if a state actor suppressed free speech. The concept that you're edging up to here is called "State Action". It's the idea that the…

The parent was speaking about conceptual frameworks, not legal ones.

I think we can agree that free speech laws from a couple centuries ago cover fewer and fewer relevant types of public discourse.

We disagree on whether that's a good, bad or neutral thing.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#572

Post by mrguyorama »

optimalsolver wrote: post #334
d3nj4l wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardcore believers from /r/The_Donald are on thedonald.win now. The place is as full of anti-semitism, racism and misogyny as you'd expect. It's a good place for a laugh every now and then, if you can stomach the hate.

How did they take the election loss?

Well seeing that even r/conservative still thinks Trump won and the democrats stole the election, I'm sure you can figure out the answer.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#573

Post by aaron-santos »

berryjerry wrote: post #261
kibwen wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't get more conservative as they get older, they get more conservative when they have more to lose . It just so happens that as people get older they tend to get houses, families, long-term careers, etc, which tilts them towards preserving the status quo in amber so as not to threaten what they have. And if, hypothetically, a generation were to grow up and find themselves unable to afford a home of their ow…

People get more conservative as they get older because they realize things cost money, how hard they have to work to earn it, and how bad the government is at spending it for them. I'd say modern day conservativism is more akin to individualism - don't let others spend money for you because you spend your money more wisely, and if you don't it's your fault. I think you'll find most young people don't even make the co…

Let me put it this way. Young people see their elders espouse these views. They associate conservative ideas with being patronizing. This actively pushes them away from conservative ideology. This occurs whether or not the views themselves are correct. Change people's minds by being less patronizing not more.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#574

Post by brazzy »

totony wrote: post #416
watwut wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time holocaust was going on, it was too late.

Are you saying without free speech it wouldn't have happened?

"We enter the Reichstag to arm ourselves with democracy’s weapons. If democracy is foolish enough to give us free railway passes and salaries, that is its problem... We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we."

-- Joseph Goebbels, 1928

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#575

Post by aaron-santos »

sthnblllII wrote: post #198
aaron-santos wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense. Lies spread faster than truth, and repetition legitimizes are fundamentally incompatible with the marketplace of ideas mindset.

Really? It took a huge mobilization of media manipulation fear mongering and gas lighting to get the American public to swallow the Weapons of Mass Destruction and/or Saddam did 9/11 lies. If people had been free to speak their minds ( https://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/21/phil_donahue_on_his_2... ) back then we wouldn't have been lead into that war like lemmings. Information is control. I trust the funny cat lady n…

> Lies require censorship of truth to survive.

No they don't. Lies spread faster than truth[1] and repetition legitimizes[2]. The marketplace of ideas is the just world fallacy for people who like to think a lot.

[1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1114.8.full

[2] https://www.spring.org.uk/2010/12/the-illusion-of-truth.php

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#576

Post by Joseph-Stalin »

corobo wrote: post #479
hombre_fatal wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's hard for me to envision what the next iteration on Reddit could be. Maybe there isn't one and instead we're seeing a resurgence of forum silos again that's winning back the mainstream. For example, I was pleasantly surprised to see Discourse have so much success and high profile roll outs (like Boing Boing and Blizzard). It turns out that everyone was ready for a modern revitalization of the forum experien…

> hard for me to envision what the next iteration on Reddit could be You mention it in your post. It's Discord. We're looping back to IRC. Give forums another 5 years or so

discord and twitter, everything is just a messy ocean of piss imo, discord is not an iteration on reddit, maybe some people prefer discord to reddit but it is far from a replacement. It's a big JS-heavy chatroom (almost like new reddit...).

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#577

Post by Joseph-Stalin »

UncleMeat wrote: post #485
anshumankmr wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a tonne of tankies on the site. Some who claim Holodomor was fake, Tianmen square was an exaggeration and the DPRK/China are heroes, Fidel Castro was a benevolent dictator and that everyone who escaped his regime was a slave owner.

Here is the secret: most leftists don't like tankies. Ban them as well I say! I people want to defend Stalin's murderous regime then I don't want them there either. Appealing to some hypocrisy here isn't super useful since the large bulk of people who don't want fascists on their webforums also don't want tankies.

It's also so vague, it's useless. There's "tonnes of " on Twitter. No presented evidence/claims that the number of them (relative to anyone else you don't like/don't agree with) is causing an issue, or that Twitter has a structural problem that raises the voices of tankies.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#578

Post by sneak »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #517
rswail wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the plane seats, the solution is that airlines provide larger seats for all passengers. The problem of obese passengers encroaching on fellow passengers "space" is because airlines have consistently reduced that "space" over the last 2 decades or more. However, either obesity is a disability, in which case, perhaps the ADA or equivalent could be used to force airlines to provide accomodation, or it is not a…

> Drugs are banned in sport to avoid people using "artifical" enhancements to their innate trained abilities. If someone gets genetic modification to enhance, say, their muscles abilities to use energy, how are you going to police that? > Have everyone playing submit their genome for examination? My point is is that it does not matter. What is current top competition sport is not natural anymore so I do not really ca…

> What is current top competition sport is not natural anymore so I do not really care about whether they take drugs (illegal today, maybe legal tomorrow) or not. Or modify they genome.

Two things:

This is a minority viewpoint. I believe most sports fans and participants want sports to remain free of exogenous performance enhancing drugs.

The second: the situation you describe would disadvantage everyone who does not engage in maximizing their use of such PEDs, and the sport in question would rapidly be transformed from what it is now into something vastly different, as the people willing to ingest these modifications would quickly displace the ones that aren't, or don't embrace the practice as fully.

That may be fine for you, but it is a big change, and many people like it the way it is now.

Personally, I agree with you. There should probably be a drugs league in various sports where people get as insanely artificially enhanced as human bodies can support, I might even watch that despite my general aversion to sports just to see the extreme tech involved. But it's absolutely silly to equate that to what is happening today because "today's athletes are not natural". It's not the same thing at all.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#579

Post by pstuart »

yakireev wrote: post #419
pstuart wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about this dissent you speak of. Could you share some examples of it that you have seen or would like to see? Edit: the question was asked in sincerity. I haven't seen any such dissent but I live in a bubble. The only conservative dissent I've seen in the last 4 years has been been republicans leaving the party over Trump.

Go to /r/all and try to find the first pro-T. post and the first "orange man bad" post. If you don't find any pro-T. posts quickly, then this is your example. We know from the election results that about half of the U.S. voters prefer R. party or T. in particular. This is a lot - this can't be a fringe group by definition of "fringe". In 2016, scrolling through reddit you could see it. There was a contested election,…

I need to tread carefully here, but this is the kind of political discussion that HN doesn't want.

I'm interested in discussing policy, and the application of same. Tribal warfare politics is ugly and uninteresting.

Are you religious? Shall I try to talk you out of your faith? Because that's what discussing T is to his followers. From my vantage point (and I'm not alone in this), it's both fascinating and horrifying but above all, frustrating, because there's no possibility of real dialog.

Maybe the reason you don't see anything positive about T where you describe is because there isn't a whole lot to say in that regard?

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#580

Post by watwut »

totony wrote: post #416
watwut wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time holocaust was going on, it was too late.

Are you saying without free speech it wouldn't have happened?

There is no honest way to get from the exchange above to your comment.

In any case, it would not happened without people would defend them each time they could, who would made up what may opponents said just to make opponents sound bad, who pretended that nazi are not danger, that nazi are just little misguided young men meaning well or just trolls.

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