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Autism and Invention Are Connected

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Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#161
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also talking about regular career choices (not academia) that only involve a three or four year undergraduate degree. Women self select out of technical pursuits (CS) and self select into more verbal or empathic areas (Law or Medicine, and an even more extreme example being liberal arts) even though such areas might entail even more study than CS. This self selection is magnified when women have more choice and f…

Yes, I'm specifically talking of women loss after undergraduate level.

Agree that this is an issue

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#162
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that it's a disability is as stupid as the idea that being 7 foot tall is a disability.

Not to nit-pick, but exceptionally tall people often have spine issues, and in sports, career-ending foot injuries are common in basketball. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yao_Ming Also disable sound and search for "Kevin Durant injury: A look at the NBA's history with foot injuries" As well, some of the "tall genes" are associated with connective tissue and other health problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfan_…

Yes, that was the point I was making. It seems that it flew over peoples heads.

Being on the spectrum without learning how to work around neurotypicals is the issue, the same way that being 7 foot tall without the physical modifications needed to support that body is also an issue.

I am very much on the spectrum but have developed a large number of coping strategies [0]. Had I been diagnosed and treated as a child I would have never had the ability to become anywhere near as successful and fulfilled as I am today. Instead I would have been drugged into being an office drone and probably been looking at suicide about now.

[0] One of the odder ones that no one neurotypical understands is an algebra of social relations I use to model office politics. It lets me evaluate the social graph analytically several jumps further than any person can keep in their head.

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#163
The research study behind the book is about autistic traits and not necessarily clinically diagnosed autism.

Yes it is a spectrum and yes you can be "high functioning" and have "milder symptoms" but it is way more than that.

Autism has a wide range of clinical subtypes and there are extremely debilitating ones.

At its worst, you have kids who are non-verbal and can't communicate. If they don't get therapy they can be become aggressive and violent as they get older. A screaming hitting 5 year old is far different than a screaming hitting 15 year old.

Spinning in circles, flapping, repetition, sensory issues, the requirement of definite routines. It's a whole different world and exhausting.

You can identify signs of autism as early as 18 months. At age 2 or 3 it can be reliably diagnosed. I've personally seen autistic non-verable young kids go through intensive therapy and develop into kids who can attend kindergarten or 1st grade.

What is really sad is that for the kids that don't get early intervention and where schools and states are not able to identify these kids. These kids end up with behavioral IEPs, might get kicked out of school and have no friends. Not that the kids necessarily want to play with other kids.

Also the UK is seriously behind in autism therapy services and while it is good to focus on positive traits that might be associated with autism it is not helpful to those who really need the help. And in many cases you need a lot of help. But if you invest when the kids are young you can really make a difference.

In the US, Obamacare really opened up services in the US and even then its hit or miss. For example, federal employees have no early intervention/autism coverage. And before that you had to go to specific states or school districts or be really rich to get any type of help. Even then it takes 6 months to get your kid in somewhere and the wait lists are huge as demand is so high.

Kids with autism basically need 1:1 therapy 8 hours a day with positive reinforcement either ABA, AVB etc... I am a fan of center based programs but you do need to find a good program.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/signs-autism

Also I am not sure what Baron-Cohen is suggesting here but saying that there is a "scientific rationale" behind the kid flipping the light on and off or staring at the fireplace or a ceiling fan wondering how it is just nonsense. I mean maybe its true but did the kid tell you that? The kid is presumably not able to ask someone as to why the light turns on when he flicks the switch or if told, integrate the response. I think it is more consistent with the need for stimulation. Also his comment on a savant with autism is really not helpful. Savant syndrome is probably co-morbid with autism, development delay, and intellectual disability... but to say that's an autistic trait is just irresponsible.

His book is basically a generalization based on autistic traits focused on systematizing and pattern matching and guess what the major confounding variable is ... we are all humans. Humans are pattern matchers + more. We also all respond to stimulus/response. And even animals are pattern matchers.

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#165

Interesting read. Minor point of clarification: It's noted that many autistic folks struggle with empathy. There are two dimensions to empathy, cognitive and affective . Cognitive is more about perspective taking, or reading the feelings / intentions of others, while affective is the ability to share/understand the emotions of others, and respond appropriately. Putting aside that the two may overlap, it's often the c…

As someone in the spectrum, how could I improve my empathy?

The first step is to look for the most obvious signs. (Sounds trivial, but many people don't it, instead they create overcomplicated hypotheses.) If someone smiles, they are probably happy. If someone screams, they are probably angry. If someone cries, they are probably sad. This is not going to be 100% perfect, e.g. sometimes people smile when they feel embarassed. But it's a good starting point that you shouldn't skip.

(Many people already have a story about how the other person feels, and either ignore the signs or try to find an explanation within the story. For example, I assume that the person is angry... but the person smiles at me... what a hypocrite!! Instead of considering that maybe I was wrong about the person being angry.)

For someone on the spectrum, probably the most difficult part is to stop doing what you are doing now, and observe the other person curiously. And make the habit to do this as often as possible. Because this is often more important than finishing the sentence (paragraphs, the entire speech) that you already started. This will be really difficult -- but the encouraging thing is that when you master this skill, you can become better at it than many neurotypicals. Because they are doing it in an instinctive half-assed way, but when you learn to focus, you will focus intensely. (Of course, a neurotypical could learn the same thing, the same way, they just have less motivation to do so, because they assume they are already perfect at it, so most won't bother.) Knowing that you don't know is a good start.

And by the way, neurotypicals also fail at empathy quite often, they just cover it better, and recover from a blunder faster. They kinda do it in a way that is more socially acceptable. For example, they sometimes misinterpret another person in a way that makes the other person go "wtf?", but all onlookers go "wow, that was an awesome example of empathy". While you, if you misinterpret someone, that person goes "wtf?" and everyone else goes "wtf?" too. Maybe the proper way to put it is that neurotypicals are very good at reading the feelings of a crowd, but it is hit-and-miss with reading the feelings of one specific person. On the spectrum, it is hit-and-miss with one person, and almost sure miss with a crowd.

Also, look at the compatibility of their words and actions. If someone says "I am okay", but they keep yelling and hitting things, they are probably not okay. But confronting them about it directly is not helpful. Maybe later, if they calm down, you could ask them "yesterday, when you said you were okay, you also..., so I am confused". Here it depends. Some people will explain. Some will get angry again; in that case, don't try this with the same person again, find someone else to talk to.

For long-term understanding of other people, focus on what they do, instead of what they say. The past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. If someone keeps talking about how they are going to do this or that, but they never do it, just assume they never will. Someone keeps doing something, then says excuses and promises to never do it again, but keeps doing it, just assume that they will keep doing it. The words can provide additional information to actions (e.g. "I hit you because I was angry"), but cannot erase the action (whatever was the reason, it is a fact that the person hit you, and you should not forget that, especially if that happens repeatedly). Words are "maybe", repeated actions are "the real thing". (Repeated words do not become any more reliable. Unless you mean "reliable prediction of what the person will say the next time", of course.)

People are different. Some are liars, some are manipulators, some are confused, some are sincere. Sometimes your problems with understanding a specific person are a result of that specific person being difficult to understand. Don't worry too much about understanding one specific person; pay attention to understanding people in general. It is possible that your understanding of other people will gradually improve, and yet that one person will remain just as mysterious as before. Count that as a success, not as failure.

People are more similar to each other than it may seem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect Most people are insecure, with various degree of denial. (Major exception: psychopaths. Charming people who usually refuse to discuss what is inside them, because there is barely anything beyond emptiness and hunger.)

Like all skills, empathy improves with practice. It would probably be useful if you could find someone to observe you at social situations, and discuss with them the situations afterwards. Probably more than one person, because each person will have their own biases and projections.

Maybe try to read some books or watch videos on Rogerian therapy. Simply said, it is a way to communicate with people in a therapeutical setting without imposing your own ideas of how they feel. (If you don't know how they feel, and you know that you don't know, that should make it even easier.)

This is just a random stream of thought, I hope it is useful, and I definitely have no scientific evidence for any of that. Good luck!

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. The author of that article, Baron-Cohen, has previously written (debated?) about whether HFA/AS is a disability OR a difference. Speaking for myself, and many who identify as having Asperger's -- and your son, from what it sounds like (who sounds really cool!) -- it is indeed a difference , and by no means a disability.

I should be clear in stating that my life hasn't been a bowl of cherries. Asperger's is at the core of a looooong list of problems I've had with interpersonal relationships, whether it's family, friends, co-workers, roommates, etc. I'm sort of intolerant of being treated unjustly or being taken advantage of, and I react rather nastily to those who cross me. (And before you judge me, know that people with Asperger's h…

> There are also many people who take offense to the term lower/lesser functioning

As I understand it, the problem with using the expressions "lower / higher functioning" is that it evokes the idea that problems of people with "lower functioning" are a strict superset of problems of people with "higher functioning".

In reality, it's more like there is a set of symptoms, and some people have a larger random selection, and some people have a smaller random selection, so it is possible to be "higher functioning" but fail at X, or be "lower functioning" and fail at everything but X. So the "higher/lower" is more about how much your specific set of symptoms disrupts your life, but it doesn't imply which symptoms are present or absent.

But people who see the "lower / higher functioning" as two sets of symptoms will judge you by presence or absence of one specific symptom.

(Also, with some symptoms, how much they disrupt your life depends on what environment you live in.)

> Autistic twitter is quite the landmine for semantic wars of this sort.

Twitter seems to evoke the worst in people in general. The explanation I wrote here would almost certainly be also considered highly offensive by someone.

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#167
post #3

https://archive.is/dil8Z

Bless you people. I am amazed at how many pay-walled articles are posted on HN. Are most people here really well off enough that they can afford the dozens of subscriptions that are often linked to here?

It's like the often-proposed micropayments, except without the "micro".

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#168
post #163

The research study behind the book is about autistic traits and not necessarily clinically diagnosed autism. Yes it is a spectrum and yes you can be "high functioning" and have "milder symptoms" but it is way more than that. Autism has a wide range of clinical subtypes and there are extremely debilitating ones. At its worst, you have kids who are non-verbal and can't communicate. If they don't get therapy they can be…

ABA is... quite controversial, to put it mildly. It is essentially an "aversion therapy", which is a codeword for "I will keep hurting you until you learn to behave properly". (The same idea as behind many cures for homosexuality.)

And yes, you can make kids stop performing some specific behaviors using ABA, so they will count it as big success. It does not make them less autist, only more terrified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis#Cont...

> applied behavior analysis ... used aversives such as electric shocks to modify undesirable behavior in their initial use in the 1970s, as well as slapping and shouting ... aversives have continued to be used in some ABA programs. In comments made in 2014 to the FDA, a clinician who previously worked at the Judge Rotenberg Educational Center claimed that "all textbooks used for thorough training of applied behavior analysts include an overview of the principles of punishment, including the use of electrical stimulation." In 2020, the FDA banned the use of electrical stimulation devices used for self-injurious or aggressive behavior and asserted that "Evidence indicates a number of significant psychological and physical risks are associated with the use of these devices, including worsening of underlying symptoms, depression, anxiety, posttraumatic stress disorder, pain, burns and tissue damage."

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Rotenberg_Educational_Ce...

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#169
post #163

The research study behind the book is about autistic traits and not necessarily clinically diagnosed autism. Yes it is a spectrum and yes you can be "high functioning" and have "milder symptoms" but it is way more than that. Autism has a wide range of clinical subtypes and there are extremely debilitating ones. At its worst, you have kids who are non-verbal and can't communicate. If they don't get therapy they can be…

ABA is... quite controversial, to put it mildly. It is essentially an "aversion therapy", which is a codeword for "I will keep hurting you until you learn to behave properly". (The same idea as behind many cures for homosexuality.) And yes, you can make kids stop performing some specific behaviors using ABA, so they will count it as big success. It does not make them less autist, only more terrified. https://en.wikip…

>ABA is... quite controversial, to put it mildly. It is essentially an "aversion therapy", which is a codeword for "I will keep hurting you until you learn to behave properly".

This is not true. Modern ABA has no punishment as negative feedback component. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If you find that a facility engages in said techniques they should be reported.

Re: Autism and Invention Are Connected

#170
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to nit-pick, but exceptionally tall people often have spine issues, and in sports, career-ending foot injuries are common in basketball. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yao_Ming Also disable sound and search for "Kevin Durant injury: A look at the NBA's history with foot injuries" As well, some of the "tall genes" are associated with connective tissue and other health problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfan_…

Yes, that was the point I was making. It seems that it flew over peoples heads. Being on the spectrum without learning how to work around neurotypicals is the issue, the same way that being 7 foot tall without the physical modifications needed to support that body is also an issue. I am very much on the spectrum but have developed a large number of coping strategies [0]. Had I been diagnosed and treated as a child I…

> It lets me evaluate the social graph analytically

That's pretty far out there, dude.

I just don't bother, which is probably why I receive hundreds of downvotes per month and don't care. :)

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