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Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

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Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#261

Post by pjc50 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #223

Just want to point out how special interests can actually pretty insidiously change your viewpoint by making you think "that's the way things have always been". It was relatively recently that I discovered that jaywalking, as a crime, was a distinctly American phenomenon, when in an HN discussion someone mentioned that British folk think the crime of jaywalking is insane (in the UK you can cross pretty much wherever…

British person here to tell you that jaywalking criminalisation is insane.

Crossing the road unsafely carries the risk of death or serious injury, who thinks a small fine is going be a deterrent when bodily harm isn't?

(Actual UK law summary: https://www.birchallblackburn.co.uk/do-pedestrians-always-ha... )

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#262

Post by reificator »

scatters wrote: post #221
reificator wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right of way or not, you are the operator of the dangerous machine,not the pedestrian. The onus is on you to pay attention to your surroundings. It doesn't matter whose fault it is if you clip a child at 40mph, they're dead. This is disingenuous. Say for instance a person wants to die by being hit by traffic: they can jump out from behind a parked car right as the car passes. So in at least some percentage of cases…

If you're driving along a road with parked cars, you slow to a speed where if someone (say a 4 year old child) jumps out you can stop within your reaction time. Anything else is dangerously reckless.

> If you're driving along a road with parked cars, you slow to a speed where if someone (say a 4 year old child) jumps out you can stop within your reaction time. Anything else is dangerously reckless.

Going substantially slower than the posted speed limit is a ticketable offense in most areas.

It also makes it more difficult for other drivers to judge your speed and position if you are not going either the posted or "accepted" speed for that stretch of road. This can and does cause accidents, particularly in retirement communities where older drivers slow down because they feel it will be safer.

My previous post was merely stating that driver vigilance is not the only factor in a collision with a pedestrian. Jumping out in front of the car is just one example because it's easy to visualize.

I am very much not stating that drivers are already vigilant enough. Only pushing back against a disingenuous statement. I don't want people to espouse a view I agree with (drivers should be more vigilant) with an argument that is easy to debunk.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#263

Post by GhostVII »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #70
GhostVII wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seeing as encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. So no that is not true in any way, especially when you account for armed vs unarmed police shootings (~25 unarmed black people were shot and killed by police in 2019, where unarmed includes…

>There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. "And yet" is entirely the wrong conjunction here; if there are more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, then it logically follows there would be more deaths. In fact, I'd argue that there are far more than 6x as many instances of jaywalking than there are police encounters…

Ah yea I had that flipped.

Not all 6k deaths are from jaywalking, and not all 1k police deaths are unjustified so probably a poor comparison regardless

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#264

Post by godshatter »

wnevets wrote: post #57
annexrichmond wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

Why should shoplifting be punished more harshly than wage theft?

Why not punish both? Shoplifting and wage theft involve theft. It's not okay to harm some random business because some other business made you bus tables after your shift ended or whatever.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#265

Post by labawi »

rightbyte wrote: post #247
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I will be curious to see if the BEV revolution happens there will be a huge statistical change in cancer rates in the US. 3) as a cyclist who transitions from commuting by bike in the summer to car in the winter, it is astonishing how my psychology is impacted by driving in the two modes. I am so much more impatient and angry from driving. There is just a nasty psychological feedback cycle of the obvious pure pote…

Sadly the tires them self seems to be a big problem. I wonder how big share of air polution they are responsible of.

Estimates seem to be It is an issue, and I don't want lots of cars even if electric, but if you are weighing them as having similar air pollution, it's probably fearmongering, or fantasyland where cars don't have deteriorating emission control.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#266

Post by AirborneUnicorn »

jbnorth wrote: post #242
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Regarding your third point, I've nothing but distain for bikers in my community. They put up signs to be treated like cars (since there generally are very poor shoulders in this area) but then will plow through stop signs and will not signal turns or anything. Nearly ran one over in a fire truck because they just ran right through the stop sign.

It’s been seen [0] that having a slightly different subset of traffic rules for cyclists (while maintaining that they are indeed a vehicle with rights to the public roadways) is safer for all parties. ————————————————-

[0] https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2020/09/30/washington-states-ne...

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#267

Post by holoduke »

rightbyte wrote: post #247
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I will be curious to see if the BEV revolution happens there will be a huge statistical change in cancer rates in the US. 3) as a cyclist who transitions from commuting by bike in the summer to car in the winter, it is astonishing how my psychology is impacted by driving in the two modes. I am so much more impatient and angry from driving. There is just a nasty psychological feedback cycle of the obvious pure pote…

Sadly the tires them self seems to be a big problem. I wonder how big share of air polution they are responsible of.

Tires ,but also brake pads. That's why we need to have ceramic brake discs and pads for all cars being mandatory soon.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#268

Post by SeanLuke »

asguy wrote: post #226
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

> 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. Isn't this kind of leap? I've lived plenty of expensive places (e.g. downtown San Diego, Boston, Los Angeles) that had free/highways close to expensive property. What is leading you to believe highway construction targets the poor areas, other than those real estate markets are alread…

Virginia intentionally ran I-64 through Richmond's oldest historic black district, Jackson Ward, splitting it in two and effectively destroying it.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#269

Post by leetcrew »

reportingsjr wrote: post #260
leetcrew wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are at least a few commenters here who repeatedly advocate for banning cars altogether in cities. if not "anti-automobile", how would you describe this position?

That almost exclusively refers to largely limiting personal cars, it doesn't include service vehicles, delivery automobiles, etc (so construction vans and trucks, ambulances, etc are still allowed). Much more info on the car free city center concept at this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carfree_city

tbh I don't actually disagree with banning personal cars in very dense city centers. but I have to say it is a special sort of linguistic backflip to not call this position "anti-automobile".

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#270

Post by nashashmi »

imglorp wrote: post #153
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Don't forget.. 4. Auto makers conspired to kill or cripple mass transit. http://www.brooklynrail.net/NationalCityLinesConspiracy.html

Government killed public transit by mandating that bus and rail had to be separate entities. As rail travel plummeted bus routes were trying to increase rail traffic with bus routes serving rail stations.
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