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Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

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Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#151

Post by marricks »

nineplay wrote: post #116
marricks wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many US cities are designed to be downright hostile to pedestrians, California in particular. Some areas in Orange County have blocks before cross walks, or cross walks only on one side of the street so you had to make the right decision a block ago about which side of the street to be on! Strip malls seemed designed to have people drive the 1k feet between businesses rather than having accessible walking. With city…

> Many US cities are designed to be downright hostile to pedestrians Exactly, which is why the decriminalization of jaywalking in those cities is a terrible idea. Orange County isn't going to be redesigned, so more jaywalkers means more pedestrian deaths.

"Hey we made an awful system many people can't follow, let's keep them criminalized or more bad stuff could happen."

No option is perfect, but it's layering unfairness on unfairness, ESPECIALLY considering that such laws are often selectively enforced.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#152

Post by btilly »

caconym_ wrote: post #107
vorpalhex wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking 36 pedestrians were killed last year in accidents in my city. We have one contested police shooting. 31 the year before that, two contested shootings. At least biweekly there's an article in the local paper about someone hit while illegally crossing a highway, often at night. I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossin…

On the other hand, there are probably many more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, so the statement you quoted may still be correct. At 36x, I'd guess that's more likely than not—I've been stopped on foot by the police once that I can remember, and I've probably jaywalked thousands of times. In my own anecdotal experience, the most dangerous way to cross the road is in a marked crosswalk with a signal—as…

In my own anecdotal experience, the most dangerous way to cross the road is in a marked crosswalk with a signal...

When I visited London a couple of years ago I was surprised to see that they set the crosswalk significantly back from the intersection. Meaning that a car turning actually can turn, and stop in front of the crosswalk for pedestrians. Which in turn means that the driver can pay attention to cars, decide to turn, and then separately deal with pedestrians rather than have pedestrians be part of a complicated decision.

I know of no research on it, but I have to believe that this design saves lives over the American standard of having the crosswalk right at the intersection.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#153

Post by imglorp »

woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Don't forget..

4. Auto makers conspired to kill or cripple mass transit.

http://www.brooklynrail.net/NationalCityLinesConspiracy.html

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#154

Post by watwut »

Leherenn wrote: post #124
jawns wrote: post #52

My first year of college, I was cited for jaywalking. I was walking across a barren street in our small college town on my way to class, and there was a town cop standing against a wall of a nearby building waiting for an easy catch. I had fully crossed the street and was walking to a nearby building when I heard someone yell "Hey" behind me. I contemplated not even turning around, because I wanted to get to class on…

Is jaywalking illegal all the time? Here it's only illegal if there's a crossing less than 50 m away.

I remember story about woman who got hit by speeding car along with her kids who got hurt badly or died. They charged her with endangering kids, but not the driver - crossing was over half mile away.

There was public outrcy about that.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#155

Post by BitwiseFool »

tom_ wrote: post #147
BitwiseFool wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"You're the one in a 200+ bhp murder machine, not them. If somebody can dart out into the path of your car, you should be asking yourself why you let yourself get into that situation." If somebody can dart out in front of my car, isn't that the fault of the person who darted? Or, the civil engineer who designed the road? How can you possibly say that I let myself get into this situation?

My point is: why were you not more carefully assessing the situation, to ensure that you were driving at an appropriate speed, given the risk of having somebody leap into the path of your car? That is after all a situation you presumably want to avoid. (Even if you don't care about hitting somebody, maybe at least consider that it's equivalent to having a 75 kg lump of meat fired at your car at, say, 35 mph.)

I've had pedestrians dart out in front of my path on three separate occasion in my life. Thankfully, I was aware enough to prevent hitting them. A combination of a slow enough speed, good brakes, enough distance, and luck (to be honest). It was a jarring experience each time, and each time it was completely unexpected. Of course I care about the life of the people who almost got hit - and I'm glad they didn't get maimed. But I absolutely did do a lot of cursing and wondering why they didn't look both ways.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#156

Post by reificator »

maccard wrote: post #135
vorpalhex wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, drivers should simply pause physics and magically stop their vehicle or wear nightvision goggles at all times. I was making a right turn on a 40mph road on a green light. There's a crosswalk there so I checked and the crosswalk was vacant, made the turn and proceeded to get up to speed on that road. And then immediately did a hard brake because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, cove…

> You're right, drivers should simply pause physics and magically stop their vehicle or wear nightvision goggles at all times. You're being ridiculous here. Nobody is asking for that, they're asking for sensible road design and sensible rules. > because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, covered by trees, with a kid being dragged behind her, 40 feet from a crosswalk that clearly indicated DO NOT W…

> Right of way or not, you are the operator of the dangerous machine,not the pedestrian. The onus is on you to pay attention to your surroundings. It doesn't matter whose fault it is if you clip a child at 40mph, they're dead.

This is disingenuous.

Say for instance a person wants to die by being hit by traffic: they can jump out from behind a parked car right as the car passes. So in at least some percentage of cases, there's simply nothing even the most attentive driver could do to avoid hitting someone.

I'm not saying cars are never at fault (I walk, ride a bike, and ride a motorcycle, each more than I drive a car; I've got plenty of first hand experience with at-fault drivers) but framing it this way seems very dishonest to me.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#157

Post by mulmen »

627467 wrote: post #134

"the auto industry made it a crime", I mean, we hear lots of allegations that USA is actually ruled by corporations but was this crime not established as such by elected officials in an elected institution? Jaywalking is a ridiculous "crime", no doubt. But let's not go blame some abstract group (auto industry) for democratic society's failure.

Well the crime was democratically instituted in a world where the "abstract group" literally bought up all the public transit they could and then shut it down to create more drivers. Who then vote.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#158

Post by nitrogen »

stronglikedan wrote: post #131
jawns wrote: post #52

My first year of college, I was cited for jaywalking. I was walking across a barren street in our small college town on my way to class, and there was a town cop standing against a wall of a nearby building waiting for an easy catch. I had fully crossed the street and was walking to a nearby building when I heard someone yell "Hey" behind me. I contemplated not even turning around, because I wanted to get to class on…

My boss decided to jaywalk an otherwise empty street in downtown LA during a conference (not a big deal where we're from). When he got to the other side, a cruiser pulled up onto the sidewalk blocking his path, and the cop got out and berated him while writing him a ticket. Crazy and overzealous to say the least, but we still haven't let him live it down to this day.

Before corona I visited some colleagues in LA for a knowledge transfer, as they were handing over ownership of a whole bunch of infrastructure to me. As we were walking to lunch, I couldn't help noticing that they very clearly and insistently walked as far away from the street as they could. Very edge of the sidewalk away from the street. They warned me about cars never looking when they turn, etc.

LA is not a pedestrian city.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#159

Post by watwut »

vorpalhex wrote: post #108
LordDragonfang wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossing on a red walk sign Which is an indication that jaywalking isn't the real problem here, it's inattentive drivers. How many of the 36 above were similar situations?

You're right, drivers should simply pause physics and magically stop their vehicle or wear nightvision goggles at all times. I was making a right turn on a 40mph road on a green light. There's a crosswalk there so I checked and the crosswalk was vacant, made the turn and proceeded to get up to speed on that road. And then immediately did a hard brake because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, cove…

> There's a crosswalk there so I checked and the crosswalk was vacant, made the turn and proceeded to get up to speed on that road. And then immediately did a hard brake because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, covered by trees,

1.) If you cant see, you should not speed up.

2.) If you cant see, she cant see the crossroad either. Also, pedestrians dont are the ones with requirement to have driving license - drivers are the ones supposed to be in the know and in control.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#160

Post by underseacables »

It’s very interesting to visit compact cities like San Francisco, DC, and NYY, and see how much people jaywalk without a worry. Having walked across the street outside of a crosswalk an uncountable number of times, I cannot recall ever being stopped or being alone. Seems people can adequately decide the risk. It would be better to put the onerous on safety back on to vehicles, but this new law could be used to justify blocking traffic.
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