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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#321

Post by labawi »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #268
newen wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Six times is in the same order of magnitude, so it’s entirely plausible that a significant number of people would be affect by MSG with its normal dose. And it’s entirely plausible that some restaurants would put six times the normal dose in some meals, especially fast food restaurants that don’t use standardized measurements like Chinese restaurants.

> Six times is in the same order of magnitude I don't think this sentence has any meaning. What is "the same order of magnitude"? By the normal definition (still not great, but at least it's well-defined), 6 times x is only in the same order of magnitude as x when x is in the range [0,1.7), and it's in the next order of magnitude up when x is in [1.7,10). Even if we adjust that to a log scale, 6x is in the same order…

An order of magnitude is 10x, this is 6x so within an order of magnitude. Specific numbers are meaningless. Calling it same order of magnitude seems an unfortunate (and technically incorrect) phrasing.

Still, the point stands - a 6x difference between normally-served dose and a harmful one is way too small to call it non-harmful. How do you even define a normally-served dose? This needs further clarification with better definitions.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#322

Post by bbrree66 »

sharkjacobs wrote: post #50
bbrree66 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a stupid comment. Are you really saying the only possible reason is racism? When all you have is a hammer...

> “do you think racism plays a part?” > Are you really saying the only possible reason is racism? I don't think that is what they're saying

That's exactly what they're saying, why else would they ask? It's the entire purpose of what they're doing. It's a very clear insinuation. Do you think he's asking because he thinks it doesn't play a part? Why even ask then?

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#323

Post by ubercow13 »

dotancohen wrote: post #318
ubercow13 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But coeliacs disease is a real thing, whereas there is no evidence that MSG sensitivity is, so they are not comparable.

Of course there is evidence, that is why we are having this discussion. In addition to the evidence that there exists a very small minority of people who are sensitive to MSG, there exists a large industry that is dependent upon the availability of an inexpensive, effective flavour enhancer. That industry has an interest in discrediting the ill effects of MSG, just as the petrochemical industry had an interest in dis…

I must be mistaken because based on the article, I thought we were having this discussion because there is no evidence.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#324

Post by wpietri »

chanakya wrote: post #299
rayiner wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m really not sure there is a sound conclusion to be drawn from comparing the Tulsa Massacre to people being skeptical of food from a different culture. The former is something that’s a unique and very ugly aspect of American history. The latter is pretty much universal.[1] You can squint and lump both things under the umbrella of “racism” but they’re so different as to be two completely different kind of things. An…

I'd go even further and say that just because America has a history of racism and racist ideas does not mean that racism continues to be a major factor today. I've read Kendi, and he offers scant evidence that it is.

Why would you expect a scholarly 500-year history of racist ideas to offer evidence of racism's existence today?

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#325

Post by wpietri »

rayiner wrote: post #192
wpietri wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way. But now that I see how pervasive a force racism has been in America's history, I have a different view. Now I think it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case? A couple of the books that turned me around here: Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", a history of…

I’m really not sure there is a sound conclusion to be drawn from comparing the Tulsa Massacre to people being skeptical of food from a different culture. The former is something that’s a unique and very ugly aspect of American history. The latter is pretty much universal.[1] You can squint and lump both things under the umbrella of “racism” but they’re so different as to be two completely different kind of things. An…

Good thing that's not what I said, then. I pointed you at an endemic, centuries-long pattern of widespread American racism. You reduced it to one landmark event and then dismissed it.

It is also true that people are skeptical of different foods period. But more than one thing can be be happening at once.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#326

Post by llamaz »

tracker1 wrote: post #306

Reminds me of the bias against dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, largely from vegan/vegetarian biased sources not backed up by rigorous study and experimentation and mostly retracted/changed/removed at this point from official guidelines, but the myths persist in culture and even some doctors.

dietary cholesterol... sure

But saturated fat is legitimately bad for you. You should consult any introductory university biology course rather than blog posts (even if they are endorsed by decorated MDs or PhDs - science in consensus based).

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#327

Post by wpietri »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #184
wpietri wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way. But now that I see how pervasive a force racism has been in America's history, I have a different view. Now I think it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case? A couple of the books that turned me around here: Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", a history of…

I think you've hit on the true issue. The majority of people have only leared on a superficial level of of the intertwined racism of America's past - often times mostly the light touches they learned in elementary school. And what's taught in elementary school is intentionally simplified to something deemed appropriate for children. Some summary of slavery is bad, MLK, Rosa Parks, sit-ins... Most people don't actuall…

That was certainly my experience. What I learned about racism up through high school was basically, "This stuff happened, but long ago and far away, unconnected to what's going on around you."

And it's no coincidence that I learned this in a suburban school with a student body that was 1% black. In a state that was 14% black. And that had a long history of racial exclusion and white flight.

I'm shocked now at how one-sided my initial education was on this. Shocked, but not surprised.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#328

Post by wpietri »

aksss wrote: post #215
dsohn0 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black people want their victimhood to last 1000 years. Let's not pretend American racism is somehow exceptional. Africans have been committing ethnic cleansing as a continental pastime for centuries and no one cries a river about that.

I often think the people who talk loudly and overly-much about the US’s endemic racism have never travelled abroad much to witness what the rest of the world is really like (looking at you, Japan). It’s a product of an education curriculum that is hyper-focused on the misdeeds of the US. While the misdeeds need attention the view completely lacks an honest accounting of how amazing the state of this 325m culturally h…

Just to put your mind at ease, I've lived on 4 continents, so I'm reasonably aware of how things can work elsewhere. And I also agree that America, imperfect as it is, is amazing.

That is no reason at all to erase the deep endemic racism or the harm it causes daily to people. "You would be even more fucked in Japan" does not make anything better.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#329

Post by rayiner »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #297
ineedasername wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might agree that the pendulum has swung too far, but we also now have a better understanding of how bias and stereotyping can nonetheless be damaging. though yes, racism is much too loaded of a term to be thrown around the way it currently is. If you admit to no gradations, well that's when you get cancel culture, when a joke in poor taste that might reveal some bias can result in the same consequences as blatant h…

Maybe. But I have observed that so many cameras in people's pockets the past decade have shown us no evidence of UFOs nor of Bigfoot — but holy hell Black men do get killed when arrested disproportionately in the U.S..

Not quite: https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-ana...

> This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.

The systemic racism happens one step removed from that. Police are far more likely to engage into interactions with Black men, as a result of more aggressively policing Black neighborhoods, bias in engaging with someone in different circumstances, etc.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#330

Post by newen »

labawi wrote: post #321
thaumasiotes wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Six times is in the same order of magnitude I don't think this sentence has any meaning. What is "the same order of magnitude"? By the normal definition (still not great, but at least it's well-defined), 6 times x is only in the same order of magnitude as x when x is in the range [0,1.7), and it's in the next order of magnitude up when x is in [1.7,10). Even if we adjust that to a log scale, 6x is in the same order…

An order of magnitude is 10x, this is 6x so within an order of magnitude. Specific numbers are meaningless. Calling it same order of magnitude seems an unfortunate (and technically incorrect) phrasing. Still, the point stands - a 6x difference between normally-served dose and a harmful one is way too small to call it non-harmful. How do you even define a normally-served dose? This needs further clarification with bet…

Thanks for explaining it better. Yeah, within is better wording. And having specific numbers other than 10 for order of magnitude is pretty funny.
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