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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#301

Post by strogonoff »

wpietri wrote: post #150
yongjik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)

I used to think the same way. But now that I see how pervasive a force racism has been in America's history, I have a different view. Now I think it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case? A couple of the books that turned me around here: Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", a history of…

Perhaps it would help knowing that dislike for MSG flavor enhancer is also a thing in other countries besides the US, and can happen without any exposure to Chinese food whatsoever.

It is justified with following reasoning. If:

1. I trust that my body will enjoy the taste of well-prepared food from healthy fresh ingredients, and will inform me when I ate enough.

2. MSG makes anything taste better.

It follows that:

3. With MSG added, my body can be fooled into eating unhealthy food and it can be fooled into wanting more food than it needs.

4. All else equal, I will assume that a chef who does not use MSG is more skilful than a chef who does.

This logic may well be faulty, superstitious, misinformed, etc., but what it is not is racist.

(Addendum: “Chinese restaurant syndrome” is a different thing though, and unlike basic distaste for MSG it does give off an antagonistic vibe. It’s interesting that it happens in the US of all places—I bet many people around the world associate MSG first and foremost with snacks from American brands like Pringles.)

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#302

Post by JohnBooty »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #193
wwweston wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone who swears that MSG is bad for health do so because they personally hold anti-chinese racist views? Probably not. Is it possible that: * the MSG mythology in some Western nation was proposed by those with some degree of bias against foreign things or chinese cuisine or people specifically * it caught on and was repeated by people who were enthusiastic about it because of some degree of that bias * MSG was…

It totally is systemic racism. But I wish there was another word for it, or that racism were not used interchangeably with systemic racism. There's a hell of a difference between "you're racist" and "you're spreading misinformation that only exists because your grandparents were racist". The latter will get a reaction from the vast majority of people like "oh shit, I had no idea, that's awful". The former will cause…

    But I wish there was another word for it, 
    or that racism were not used interchangeably 
    with systemic racism.
I understand both sides of the argument.

Many people learned an overly simplistic definition of "racism" at some point. Essentially, "overt racism" or "active racism" -- using slurs, joining the KKK, refusing to hire people of a certain race, etc.

Anything less overt than this is not "racism" to them. Having generally steered clear of such actions in their lives, they are dismayed to consider the possibility that there are a lot of other institutions and individual actions that are racist.

We could invent a new term for "systemic racism." But, ultimately, it's still racism. To the people experiencing it, it has the same net result as other forms of racism. If a white person in a predominantly white society doesn't hire you because you're non-white, there's no material difference to you whether that person did it for overt, conscious reasons or otherwise. That is why is it is useful to think of systemic racism as racism, rather than inventing a new word for it.

Here's an interesting thought experiment. Think of the people in your life who are vehemently opposed to the use of the term "racism" to include systemic racism. Suppose we actually did invent a new term for systemic racism so that they could feel more comfortable. How do we think these people would respond?

I think a significant number of them would complain about the new term just as much. I can hear them now in my mind. "First we have to worry about being 'racist', now we have to worry about $SOME_NEW_TERM!?!? What will 'they' think of next?!?"

Because it's not really about words for them. It's about a refusal to examine their own actions.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#303

Post by AnthonyMouse »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #193
wwweston wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone who swears that MSG is bad for health do so because they personally hold anti-chinese racist views? Probably not. Is it possible that: * the MSG mythology in some Western nation was proposed by those with some degree of bias against foreign things or chinese cuisine or people specifically * it caught on and was repeated by people who were enthusiastic about it because of some degree of that bias * MSG was…

It totally is systemic racism. But I wish there was another word for it, or that racism were not used interchangeably with systemic racism. There's a hell of a difference between "you're racist" and "you're spreading misinformation that only exists because your grandparents were racist". The latter will get a reaction from the vast majority of people like "oh shit, I had no idea, that's awful". The former will cause…

> But I wish there was another word for it, or that racism were not used interchangeably with systemic racism.

Especially where in this case it's much more like systemic culturalism.

Suppose the same thing had happened, but rather than the initial dispute being between the vendors of British food and the vendors of Chinese food, it was between the vendors of British food and the vendors of Italian food. So you would have a lot of people believing that they're allergic to the gluten in pasta, when almost none of them really are, and also ignoring that plenty of British food contains gluten as well.

It would be pretty hard to argue that as racism unless you're using a definition of racism not characteristically used in America, but you can still imagine the same thing happening in the same way. So what does that tell you?

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#304

Post by neilparikh »

rubicon33 wrote: post #203
reitzensteinm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It totally is systemic racism. But I wish there was another word for it, or that racism were not used interchangeably with systemic racism. There's a hell of a difference between "you're racist" and "you're spreading misinformation that only exists because your grandparents were racist". The latter will get a reaction from the vast majority of people like "oh shit, I had no idea, that's awful". The former will cause…

It's called being biased, misinformed, or at worst stereotyping, and it used to be accepted that everyone does it and it's not the end of the world that your aunt from Wisconson thinks MSG gives her hives. Nowadays that aunt is racist, her whole family is racist, and it's the reason why everyone else can't get ahead in life.

> it used to be accepted that everyone does it and it's not the end of the world that your aunt from Wisconson thinks MSG gives her hives

I think you're taking the accusation of racism as much stronger than it actually is. No one has claimed that this is uncommon, or "the end of the world", or "her whole family is racist", or "it's the reason everyone else can't get ahead in life". They've simply said it's racist, and that claim seems uncontroversial given the definitions.

For example, if it turned out someone gave 1 cents more on average to white vs non-white beggars (due to unconscious racial biases), that would clearly be racist, but it also wouldn't be the end of the world, and I don't think person would be a particularly bad person.

If something fits the definition of racism, it doesn't become not racism just because someone feels attacked by calling it racism.

Now, in common parlance, racism is a loaded word, so I don't think it's advisable to call someone racist over these issues, and I wouldn't do so. But that doesn't mean we should censor ourselves when discussing these topics in the abstract. Otherwise, we're basically practicing political correctness.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#305

Post by goatsi »

kelnos wrote: post #241
aksss wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often think the people who talk loudly and overly-much about the US’s endemic racism have never travelled abroad much to witness what the rest of the world is really like (looking at you, Japan). It’s a product of an education curriculum that is hyper-focused on the misdeeds of the US. While the misdeeds need attention the view completely lacks an honest accounting of how amazing the state of this 325m culturally h…

Serious question (because I don't know the answer, or how to find out): are there many other places in the (first) world where people of a minority race are singled out for harassment by law enforcement, to the point where police are routinely murdering people of that race with little to no consequences? If not, then I think a focus on the US's particular brand of racism is warranted. I do agree with you that it is f…

>are there many other places in the (first) world where people of a minority race are singled out for harassment by law enforcement, to the point where police are routinely murdering people of that race with little to no consequences?

I would recommend looking into the treatment of the Indigenous in Canada [0].

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon_freezing_deaths

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#306

Post by tracker1 »

Reminds me of the bias against dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, largely from vegan/vegetarian biased sources not backed up by rigorous study and experimentation and mostly retracted/changed/removed at this point from official guidelines, but the myths persist in culture and even some doctors.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#307

Post by AnthonyMouse »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #297
ineedasername wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might agree that the pendulum has swung too far, but we also now have a better understanding of how bias and stereotyping can nonetheless be damaging. though yes, racism is much too loaded of a term to be thrown around the way it currently is. If you admit to no gradations, well that's when you get cancel culture, when a joke in poor taste that might reveal some bias can result in the same consequences as blatant h…

Maybe. But I have observed that so many cameras in people's pockets the past decade have shown us no evidence of UFOs nor of Bigfoot — but holy hell Black men do get killed when arrested disproportionately in the U.S..

> but holy hell Black men do get killed when arrested disproportionately in the U.S..

This is selection bias. The ratio of police shootings to arrests is not higher for black people. Police shootings of black persons are national news, police shootings of white persons are not.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#308

Post by tgv »

interestica wrote: post #271
hedora wrote: post #172

This article was subsequently debunked by This American life, and many of the comments here are confused. Dr Kwak was a real person, and the letter contains historical facts linking it to him. His family says the letter is genuine. According to blind studies, the symptoms described in it are experienced by a small percentage of the population, but MSG is harmless to everyone else. The article links to the This Americ…

> Dr Kwak was a real person "Dr Kwak" seems like an unfortunate typo for a doctor.

It's the original Dutch word for "quack" anyway, fully "kwakzalver".

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#309

Post by AnthonyMouse »

mlyle wrote: post #266
Frost1x wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do, otherwise this opens the door to anyone and everyone being a "racist" by some secondary, tertiary, or nth order effect. Essentially everyone would have some degree associated with them of how racist they are. I propose the following question: are people who eat at Chik-fil-A anti-LGBT (specifically gay) rights because they financially support a business through continued purchases that support anti-LG…

> > You don’t have to knowingly possess a racist motive to be racist. > I think you do, otherwise this opens the door to anyone and everyone being a "racist" by some secondary, tertiary, or nth order effect. Surely there's something in-between. Say, perhaps, black people make you uncomfortable, such that you're inclined against hiring them and you preferentially hire whites instead. Then, you wouldn't knowingly posse…

> Surely there's something in-between. Say, perhaps, black people make you uncomfortable, such that you're inclined against hiring them and you preferentially hire whites instead. Then, you wouldn't knowingly possess a racist motive but would be definitely acting racist and perpetuating racism.

That seems pretty clearly to be a racist motive. "Black people make you uncomfortable" is literally traditional racism, and action taken based on that motive is racist. Doing something like that without thinking through your intentions too hard doesn't make the act unintentional, because the intent is there whether you consciously evaluate it or not, and it doesn't change the motive. That person wants to be racist, and then directly is.

Someone who buys a chicken sandwich only because they want a chicken sandwich has no such motive or intent.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#310

Post by AnthonyMouse »

rubicon33 wrote: post #289
ineedasername wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might agree that the pendulum has swung too far, but we also now have a better understanding of how bias and stereotyping can nonetheless be damaging. though yes, racism is much too loaded of a term to be thrown around the way it currently is. If you admit to no gradations, well that's when you get cancel culture, when a joke in poor taste that might reveal some bias can result in the same consequences as blatant h…

Totally. Some might even say it was a necessary evil, that the pendulum swung far, for progress to be made. I'm glad that society as a whole recognizes systemic "racism" and how unfair the world is for many. I'd love nothing more than for us as a world community to move toward a reality that is a true meritocracy and equal opportunity isn't just a buzz word. Who can honestly say they enjoy unfair advantage? No one. T…

> Some might even say it was a necessary evil, that the pendulum swung far, for progress to be made.

The trouble is, because of the way pendulums work, the harder you push it in one direction, the harder it swings back the other way.

The level of polarization in the US right now is dangerous and cancel culture is playing with fire in a room full of gunpowder.

Cf. alien machinery: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/

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