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Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

lesswrong.com

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Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow this reminded me of a football variant (soccer for americans) that has two balls in play, either ball is good as the other.

I wondered about this recently and assumed one reason this sort of thing doesn't catch on for mainstream sports like football (soccer) or basketball is because it'd be a mess to spectate/broadcast. Sounds fun though!

Incidentally there seems to be a chess/draughts like game rather inspired by football, called Diabolik.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaballik

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#63
post #55
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun idea, but what happens when a player submits an illegal move that becomes legal only when taking the opponents move into account or that’s only legal before the opponent’s move? Say a rook moving from a1 to a3 while an opponent’s knight moves from or into a2? Also, if you are going to write down moves, you can allow the players to move all of their pieces, too, like in Diplomacy. A queen could capture a pawn next…

I think I would specify that a move has to be legal when at the start of the move, i.e. while it is being written down.

Or alternatively, the piece doesn't move if the move turns out to be illegal? Would have to try both options to see which works better

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I would specify that a move has to be legal when at the start of the move, i.e. while it is being written down.

Or alternatively, the piece doesn't move if the move turns out to be illegal? Would have to try both options to see which works better

That would open up the possibility of a paradoxical situation where both moves are legal at the start but neither is legal at the end.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#65

Promotions are a big part of shogi, and part of what makes it fun. You do not start with the most powerful pieces, you have to earn them through promotions. Also, the promotion area (the enemy camp) is larger. This article doesn't capture that aspect of the game... which is necessary if you are looking for an ideal chess variant. You may also want to take a look at some mechanics of Xiangqi, another chess variant.

I agree that promotions are an important part of what makes Shogi work so well. As I mentioned in the article, I see there are two ways to make drop chess work - either build a game around weak pieces, or make the king more nimble. I think Shogi has perfected the first approach. I love Shogi. I don't want to reinvent Shogi. But there's something that I love about Western Chess: I love knights, bishops, rooks, and queens. I also like the pawn structures it has. I like Western Chess, but I don't love it the way I love Go or Shogi. My goal is to create a version of chess that I love, and has the knights, bishops, rooks, and pawn structures that I love. This is my current best guess at what that looks like.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#66

If you want to have fun playing with chess variants, check out Really Bad Chess[0], it's a random variation each day that you play against AI and rank yourself against other players. [0] http://reallybadchess.com/

I played a good bit of Really Bad Chess when I was first getting into chess. I'm a big fan of Zach Gage's games, I think compared to his other works it's not as platonically good as his other works, but what I love about RBC is that the difficulty of the board is chosen based on your skill level, so when you're a beginner you get positions that are absurdly unbalanced in your favor, but then as you get better you eventually get the tables turned and have to work your way out of a difficult situation. It goes a long way to make chess feel more accessible and enjoyable for someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

That said, Really Bad Chess isn't really a chess variant. It's just orthodox chess with a semi-randomized board layout, but it changes none of the core mechanics, and all the pieces are the same as orthodox chess

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#67

Perhaps a variant can be devised which causes a dice roll at the time of each capture. The attacker needs to roll more than the number of direct supports a piece is having to take it, otherwise they lose the attacking piece. It will be a bit like XCOM, before a move one will know the percentage of success of various captures, and will have to make a decision in that light. So even a higly probable capture has a small…

This reminds me of David Sirlin's ill-named 'Chess 2' - one notable mechanic from there is that players have stones that they can use to bid when a piece is captured, and if the defender wins the bid, then the capture fails.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#68

I’ve been wondering if there is a way to change chess so that AI is no longer the obvious winner. Chess itself went through a variety of rule changes throughout its history, so this wouldn’t be completely novel. Off the top of my head - somehow creating new rules, especially socially-dependent or open-ended ones, on demand might work. I asked a similar question a few months ago and got some interesting answers: https…

Arimaa is a game that was designed to be hard for AI to master. Its rules are quite different from chess, but it has a lot of chess in its DNA. It has since been solved, but it survived 11 years with a $10,000+ prize for the first computer to beat a human champion.

Now that we are in the age of AlphaZero, I think we are close to the bottom of the barrel of ways to design games to hinder AI. I would be surprised if I saw another pure abstract strategy game that favored humans over AI these days, the way Go and Arimaa used to.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#69

So an entire blog post on a game he hasn't tried yet? That's in the spirit of cooking blog posts where the author has cooked the dish once. I'm reminded of most proposals to defang Lisp of its parentheses.

In my defense, I originally published this as a throwaway on my Shortform (it's sort of like LessWrong's take on Twitter), but one of the admins wanted me to repost it as a main post. I agree that ideally I would have wanted to playtest this more before drawing attention to it.

That being said, I do suspect that these rules are probably pretty close to achieving the effect I wanted to achieve- the main doubt I have is whether the king's moves work, or if they need to be adjusted to get the balance right, but even there, there's a good chance that it works. I will make sure to update the article when I get a chance to test it out.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#70

Some time ago I also had the idea of procedurally generated games, not only of chess, but using basically all the known rule sets and pieces of all known games. I captured a lot of game details and have them stored away, but I had to move onto something else shortly after, so I never explored it further.

If you haven't read this 2008 paper on procedurally generated abstract strategy games, I'd say it's related to your interests: http://ccg.doc.gold.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/browne_...

The resulting game, Yavalath, is well-known in the abstract strategy game community: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/2814/yavalath-evolutionar...

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