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Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

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Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#41

A comment in the original article says it best: ... Changing the rules tends to neutralize acquired knowledge ... and beginning players like this because it levels the playing field.

And yet the inventors of Capablanca Chess and Fischer960 chess were both World Champions

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#42
post #5

Go baduk weiqi is still worth looking into for chess players.

Author of the linked post here. I've actually done more Go than Chess in the past 6 months - I enjoy it a lot. My dream is to find a game that captures what I love about both Go and Chess. I've seen many examples of how not to make that game, but my mind turns back to that question every now and then.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#43
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any variant where both players play blind every other move or in the starting?

There's a 'fog of war' variant where you can only see the squares that a piece of yours could move to.

That one would be interesting to try with AlphaZero. Reinforcement learning systems tend to have trouble with imperfect information.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#44
Some time ago I also had the idea of procedurally generated games, not only of chess, but using basically all the known rule sets and pieces of all known games.

I captured a lot of game details and have them stored away, but I had to move onto something else shortly after, so I never explored it further.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#45
post #2

DeepMind and Kramnik had an interesting paper a few months back exploring possible chess variants: https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.04374 The basic idea is to train AlphaZero on proposed variants, and look for ones that have fewer draws and a smaller advantage for white.

Interesting paper concept. I'll read it. I also notice Kramnik is the last-listed author in a group of four, the rest of whom work at DeepMind. Is this a new marketing "thing" in published corporate research?

You may already be aware of this, but for those who don't: depending on the discipline and other factors, the last author in the list may be known as the "anchor". Often, frankly, the preceding authors do the majority of the work, while the anchor functions as a supervisor.

I'm ignoring "vanity" authorship and other horrors.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#46
My idea for a chess variant is that an engine autoplays the first X moves into a sharp, balanced position and this is what is used by all tournament players for the round.

This would avoid excessive opening preparation and steering opening to drawish positions.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#47
post #23

Here's an idea (probably not original): simultaneous chess. Both players write down their moves and, once they have both committed, both moves are executed in parallel. If two moving pieces end up on the same square, both are eliminated. If one piece moves onto a square that has been vacated by an opponent's piece in the same move then no capture takes place. Addendum: One benefit of this variant is that it is comple…

Fun idea, but what happens when a player submits an illegal move that becomes legal only when taking the opponents move into account or that’s only legal before the opponent’s move? Say a rook moving from a1 to a3 while an opponent’s knight moves from or into a2?

Also, if you are going to write down moves, you can allow the players to move all of their pieces, too, like in Diplomacy.

A queen could capture a pawn next to the king, and a bishop could simultaneously move to prevent the king from capturing the queen, for example. A countermove could be to move a pawn between that bishop and that queen, and to have the king capture the queen.

⇒ I guess this multi-move variant would get highly complicated very soon. It might be better to follow diplomacy here and replace “If two moving pieces end up on the same square, both are eliminated” by “...same square, neither moves”, or maybe add “x supports y moving to square S”*?

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#48
post #23

Here's an idea (probably not original): simultaneous chess. Both players write down their moves and, once they have both committed, both moves are executed in parallel. If two moving pieces end up on the same square, both are eliminated. If one piece moves onto a square that has been vacated by an opponent's piece in the same move then no capture takes place. Addendum: One benefit of this variant is that it is comple…

I wonder how such a game would end.

With no way to block or capture a piece on the square it's attacking from, the first time the king is placed in check he has to move or be captured. If the king isn't completely surrounded, the attacker only wins if they successfully guess where (or if) the king will move. The endgame would include an element of reading the other player, like poker.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#49
I’ve been wondering if there is a way to change chess so that AI is no longer the obvious winner. Chess itself went through a variety of rule changes throughout its history, so this wouldn’t be completely novel.

Off the top of my head - somehow creating new rules, especially socially-dependent or open-ended ones, on demand might work.

I asked a similar question a few months ago and got some interesting answers:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24441073

Otherwise, I really liked this chess variant, although it seems near impossible to actually play:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Chess

Alice chess is a chess variant invented in 1953 by V. R. Parton which employs two chessboards rather than one,[a] and a slight (but significant) alteration to the standard rules of chess. The game is named after the main character "Alice" in Lewis Carroll's work Through the Looking-Glass, where transport through the mirror into an alternate world is portrayed on the chessboards by the after-move transfer of chess pieces between boards A and B.

Re: Ideal Chess – drop chess perfected?

#50
post #42
post #5

Go baduk weiqi is still worth looking into for chess players.

Author of the linked post here. I've actually done more Go than Chess in the past 6 months - I enjoy it a lot. My dream is to find a game that captures what I love about both Go and Chess. I've seen many examples of how not to make that game, but my mind turns back to that question every now and then.

The lack of rules while opening up the world of complexity is what makes go interesting. Since chess involves 'functional pieces' I feel it may be doomed from the start. The two games may be scratching entirely different itches I'm afraid.
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